Info: LOOT! Secret Revealed by Support

[Wildman Alpha]

Wouldn't scanning everything drastically increase decay? Also, I would imagine it'd be an annoyance at best to deal with all those normal creatures. What do you do with the ones who don't have a HoF?

Depends on what mobs I was hunting, Trax I had to kill anyways as they agroed. Allos and chompers I just ran around scanning till I found one and ignored the rest. I only found HoF on Trax and Allos, The chomper HoF still eludes me

 

[Oleg]

Usually, you have to provide EXACT information what you are going to charge for your service, why this is different in sweden is above me...

Still, charging different fees for exactly the same service is (at best) questionable business practice... not sure if this is even legal in sweden.

They do provide exact information. Pay $100, receive 1000 PEDs, minus the transaction fee. Every time I pay I get the same amount.

 

[Wildman Alpha]

I still support the loot server theory. We have a server for each area of EU as we can see by the divide lines now for sure in VU10. And their is also a seperate server that controls the loot distributions to ensure the economy of the game stays stable and what items are droped. Unsing the seperate server also ensure only a fixed ammount will be droped as MA simply inputs EU economy = 100,000,000ped players currently have 50,000,000 this allows the loot server to distro 50,000,000 without breaking MA bank. it is an ongoing cycle as we burn resourses crafting it is added back to the loot pool for fails. if item unlimited is created that comes off the loot pool permanatly or until the item is TTed. Remember MA only operates on TT valeu as that is all they owe us if the game shuts down. So all loot distros are calculated on TT value. Keeping rare items rare two reasons, players that paid a lot will be pissed. Second players will deposit a lot of money to buy the rare items more money generated for MA that only has to pay you TT back for the item. Next month players depo $100,000 add 500,000ped to loot pool boosting economy $50,000 profit to MA. Loot pool = 100,050,000.

This is my thoughts on the loots.
Agree or disagree? Need further explinations?

 

[Jeremy]

Depends on what mobs I was hunting, Trax I had to kill anyways as they agroed. Allos and chompers I just ran around scanning till I found one and ignored the rest. I only found HoF on Trax and Allos, The chomper HoF still eludes me

How do you keep track of what you scanned and what you didn't?

 

[Witte]

I said EU is a company like every other out there, yes - poker is totally different because it is gambling.

Usually, you have to provide EXACT information what you are going to charge for your service, why this is different in sweden is above me...

Still, charging different fees for exactly the same service is (at best) questionable business practice... not sure if this is even legal in sweden.

Now tell me where your poker gambling site charges fees based on what - - - exactly, they do not charge any fee, they profit from losses, or charge you no fee at all when you are lucky...

Poker sites make money by taking a percentage of the pot.

surprisingly, MA stated an hourly fee of $0.50 to $1.50 per hour... and maybe file a support case, but i am sure this fee is applied to all players the same way, there are no "chosen players" and no "chosen gear" that will magically turn your time spent ingame into (TT) profit.

How do you know there is no "chosen gear"? You have some inside information you are not sharing?

Do you think the swedish gambling commission is full of blind retards so they classified EU as "not gambling" while in fact it is?

A game where money is involved is not by definition gambling. Taking a percentage of the wagered money also doesn't make a certain game gambling.

When I challenge you for a game of snooker with a wager of 100 dollar, and the owner of the snooker table asks 5%, would you consider that gambling?

When you really think the money in EU is "wagered", you clearly belong in the same section as i.e. Coelacanth - people who are 100% sure that OTHERS loot THEIR losses... if so, any further discussion is futile, because this would clearly be gambling:

Redistributing others losses by luck: Gambling
Redistributing others losses by personal preference: Illegal

How many options are left??
(i assume you do not think EU is fraud or somehow illegal, or illegally running a gambling business)

Did it ever occur to you that those losses may not be redistributed purely by luck, and that strategy and equipment has such an influence on your returns that the game is not considered gambling?

By your logic it would not matter if you have no skills, miss the mob 50% of the time, loot just halve the mobs, and use the unique purifier with a nice EK2500 Delux to hunt. The game would still cost me 0.5$-1.5$.


One more thing, unlike you, I nowhere claim I know how the system works. In fact, I am not sure at all, although I have my suspicions. I only theorize how it can work, or how it can't.

 

[wizzszz]

They do provide exact information. Pay $100, receive 1000 PEDs, minus the transaction fee. Every time I pay I get the same amount.

That are 3rd party fees, MA doesn't earn anything on it...

Poker sites make money by taking a percentage of the pot.

Poker doesn't pay you back a fixed % of what you spend...

it looks like you have difficulties to separate gambling from non-gambling activities where real cash is involved...

How do you know there is no "chosen gear"? You have some inside information you are not sharing?

Oh, so now it is up to me to prove the non-existance?
I haven't claimed that it is possible to get 100% TT back all the time with a modfap and an imk.II...
How about you proving me wrong?

A game where money is involved is not by definition gambling. Taking a percentage of the wagered money also doesn't make a certain game gambling.

Yeah, that's what i am trying to tell you all the time... did i word it so ambiguous?

But that is not the point here, the point is that EVERYONE pays the SAME percentage (and we are still only talking TT value here)

When I challenge you for a game of snooker with a wager of 100 dollar, and the owner of the snooker table asks 5%, would you consider that gambling?

Bad example, snooker isn't luck-based , but a skill-based game.
And it far more tricky than you think i guess:
If you bet on the outcome, it is gambling, if you pay $100 into a prize pool and the winner receives the prize pool, it's a tournament - that's two completely different things.

Did it ever occur to you that those losses may not be redistributed purely by luck, and that strategy and equipment has such an influence on your returns that the game is not considered gambling?

"not purely by luck"... do i really need to quote Marco saying "there is no luck involved" - NO luck, like in "absolutely none" and not like "just a bit of luck"

Or are we already beyond "rumours and propaganda" here and you accuse Marco of lying?

By your logic it would not matter if you have no skills, miss the mob 50% of the time, loot just halve the mobs, and use the unique purifier with a nice EK2500 Delux to hunt. The game would still cost me 0.5$-1.5$.

It costs you a fixed percentage of what you spend - and you play long enough to know that.

One more thing, unlike you, I nowhere claim I know how the system works. In fact, I am not sure at all, although I have my suspicions. I only theorize how it can work, or how it can't.

I have claimed to know how the system works? WHERE? I just claimed that perc hunting and high-end gear doesn't affect your % TT return - so far i haven't claimed anything else...

So, how many of your neighbors don't have to pay for the electricity consumed now?

And why do you keep discussing things that are easily answered by applying a bit of common sense?!

 

[Witte]

That are 3rd party fees, MA doesn't earn anything on it...




Poker doesn't pay you back a fixed % of what you spend...


it looks like you have difficulties to separate gambling from non-gambling activities where real cash is involved...

No problems with that.

Oh, so now it is up to me to prove the non-existance?
I haven't claimed that it is possible to get 100% TT back all the time with a modfap and an imk.II...
How about you proving me wrong?

My position is that I don't know. Yours is that you do know. So the burden of prove is yours, not mine.

Yeah, that's what i am trying to tell you all the time... did i word it so ambiguous?

But that is not the point here, the point is that EVERYONE pays the SAME percentage (and we are still only talking TT value here)



Bad example, snooker isn't luck-based , but a skill-based game.
And it far more tricky than you think i guess:
If you bet on the outcome, it is gambling, if you pay $100 into a prize pool and the winner receives the prize pool, it's a tournament - that's two completely different things.

My whole point was to pick a non-gambling game to show you that exactly the same model used for poker also works for non-gambling games. As long as there is a wager.

"not purely by luck"... do i really need to quote Marco saying "there is no luck involved" - NO luck, like in "absolutely none" and not like "just a bit of luck"

Or are we already beyond "rumours and propaganda" here and you accuse Marco of lying?

Sure, come with the quotes, at least you will have some basis for your arguments. At the moment you have none.

It costs you a fixed percentage of what you spend - and you play long enough to know that.

I have claimed to know how the system works? WHERE? I just claimed that perc hunting and high-end gear doesn't affect your % TT return - so far i haven't claimed anything else...

You claim you know it works like that, not that you think it works like that. Playing dumb wont get you out of this.

So, how many of your neighbors don't have to pay for the electricity consumed now?

And why do you keep discussing things that are easily answered by applying a bit of common sense?!

Ah, comparing apples with potatoes again. Such a business model is already proven to work with (online) poker. You haven't given me a single argument why it could not be applied to different (non-gambling) games.

 

[wizzszz]

I'm playing dumb? To get outta this, lol...
As if i'd wimp out on a discussion...


Ooook:
Quote me where i claimed that i'd "know how it works", to base at least something you said on facts....

Everything you said so far lacks not only proof (well, same applies to most of my points, too), but any logical deduction (that, in contrast, applies to your posts only).

*waiting for the quote*

Ah, comparing apples with potatoes again. Such a business model is already proven to work with (online) poker. You haven't given me a single argument why it could not be applied to different (non-gambling) games.

Oh, and once you are at it, please explain the part above... "proven to work"? WTF?

"We keep all you lose" is a business model? A business model you can apply to non-gambling games moreover???? WTF??? HOW?

 

[Witte]

I'm playing dumb? To get outta this, lol...
As if i'd wimp out on a discussion...


Ooook:
Quote me where i claimed that i'd "know how it works", to base at least something you said on facts....

Everything you said so far lacks not only proof (well, same applies to most of my points, too), but any logical deduction (that, in contrast, applies to your posts only).

*waiting for the quote*




Oh, and once you are at it, please explain the part above... "proven to work"? WTF?

"We keep all you lose" is a business model? A business model you can apply to non-gambling games moreover???? WTF??? HOW?

I have the idea you are a bit clueless about the business model poker sites use. Maybe as a start you should read the Wikipedia page. I will quote it for you:

How online poker rooms profit

Typically, online poker rooms generate the bulk of their revenue via four methods. First, there is the rake. Rake is collected from most real money ring game pots. The rake is normally calculated as a percentage of the pot based on a sliding scale and capped at some maximum fee. Each online poker room determines its own rake structure. Since the expenses for running an online poker table are smaller than those for running a live poker table, rake in most online poker rooms is much smaller than its brick and mortar counterpart.

Second, hands played in pre-scheduled multi-table and impromptu sit-and-go tournaments are not raked, but rather an entry fee around five to ten percent of the tournament buy-in is added to the entry cost of the tournament. These two are usually specified in the tournament details as, e.g., $20+$2 ($20 represents the buy-in that goes into the prize pool and $2 represents the entry fee, de facto rake). Unlike real casino tournaments, online tournaments do not deduct dealer tips and other expenses from the prize pool.

Third, some online poker sites also offer games like blackjack or side bets on poker hands where the player plays against "the house" for real money. The odds are in the house's favor in these games, thus producing a profit for the house. Some sites go as far as getting affiliated with online casinos, or even integrating them into the poker room software.

Fourth, like almost all institutions that hold money, online poker sites invest the money that players deposit. Since the sites do not have to pay interest on players' bankrolls, this method can be a significant source of revenue.

 

[wizzszz]

Poker = gambling

Show me a non-gambling game utilizing such a business model and i'll consider reading it.

Still waiting for that quote.

 

[Witte]

I'm playing dumb? To get outta this, lol...
As if i'd wimp out on a discussion...


Ooook:
Quote me where i claimed that i'd "know how it works", to base at least something you said on facts....

Everything you said so far lacks not only proof (well, same applies to most of my points, too), but any logical deduction (that, in contrast, applies to your posts only).

*waiting for the quote*

You know perfectly well what I mean with "you know how it works". I am talking about " I just claimed that perc hunting and high-end gear doesn't affect your % TT return"

Please don't play dumb.

 

[Witte]

Poker = gambling

Show me a non-gambling game utilizing such a business model and i'll consider reading it.

Still waiting for that quote.

Why? Because you are out of arguments? There is totally no reason for such demands.

But what the hell, it took me just one google search: http://internetgames.about.com/cs/playingformoney/a/playformoney1.htm

 

[wizzszz]

You know perfectly well what I mean with "you know how it works". I am talking about " I just claimed that perc hunting and high-end gear doesn't affect your % TT return"

Please don't play dumb.

Now you insult me because you can't quote me to back up what you've stated in numerous posts?

Perc hunting has been discussed ad nauseam, dozends of loot theories have been discussed ad nauseam - why doesn't your common sense tell you that it isn't possible to loot >=100% all the time?

Ofc, high evade skills result in less armor decay and thus you pay your percentage fee on less peds turnover, but that doesn't boost you above 100% TT return, no way.... that it is still possible to profit is a result of markup, TT-wise you CANT profit on the log run.

It is fine by me that you want to believe so strongly in the opposite, but it is indeed just simple math needed to see where the money has to go to be logically consistent.

No rumours to listen to, no proofs you need from me, no bla bla about perc - just take a calculator and sum it up. The result inevitably points in the same direction that i outlined here... unless you wanna dispute the laws of math now.

 

[wizzszz]

Why? Because you are out of arguments? There is totally no reason for such demands.

But what the hell, it took me just one google search: http://internetgames.about.com/cs/playingformoney/a/playformoney1.htm

????

Oh, we have small tournaments in EU now... may very well be, havent logged on for like 12 hrs now... EU is dynamic...

You are completely on the wrong track there, and it makes no sense to tell you the same thing over and over.

Funny tho, even poker sites TAKE A FIXED PERCENTAGE of the turnover...

Redistributing it based on SKILLS (and we're not talking about ingame skills here, but RL skills) would require activities where the outcome is based on your RL skills - which is SOOOO NOT the case in EU.

 

[Witte]

Now you insult me because you can't quote me to back up what you've stated in numerous posts?

Perc hunting has been discussed ad nauseam, dozends of loot theories have been discussed ad nauseam - why doesn't your common sense tell you that it isn't possible to loot >=100% all the time?

Ofc, high evade skills result in less armor decay and thus you pay your percentage fee on less peds turnover, but that doesn't boost you above 100% TT return, no way.... that it is still possible to profit is a result of markup, TT-wise you CANT profit on the log run.

It is fine by me that you want to believe so strongly in the opposite, but it is indeed just simple math needed to see where the money has to go to be logically consistent.

No rumours to listen to, no proofs you need from me, no bla bla about perc - just take a calculator and sum it up. The result inevitably points in the same direction that i outlined here... unless you wanna dispute the laws of math now.

I already showed you a model in which it is possible. So your "math" and "logic" is flawed.

 

[Witte]

????

Oh, we have small tournaments in EU now... may very well be, havent logged on for like 12 hrs now... EU is dynamic...

You are completely on the wrong track there, and it makes no sense to tell you the same thing over and over.

Funny tho, even poker sites TAKE A FIXED PERCENTAGE of the turnover...

Redistributing it based on SKILLS (and we're not talking about ingame skills here, but RL skills) would require activities where the outcome is based on your RL skills - which is SOOOO NOT the case in EU.

I can only explain it to you, I can't make you understand it. Thats up to you.

 

[wizzszz]

The games are skill based, thats why it is not gambling... it seems you didnt understand it, because im very familiar with the legal aspects of skillbased vs. luck based games.

Now, where are RL skills involved in EU (and we are not talking about trading and such, nooo, just the main 3 professions)

Tell me just this, then you have all info you need about your "skill based" business models and how they do not apply to EU.

Ok, so... was that your ONLY point or do we have to discuss another?

 

[Witte]

The games are skill based, thats why it is not gambling... it seems you didnt understand it, because im very familiar with the legal aspects of skillbased vs. luck based games.

Now, where are RL skills involved in EU (and we are not talking about trading and such, nooo, just the main 3 professions)

Tell me just this, then you have all info you need about your "skill based" business models and how they do not apply to EU.

Ok, so... was that your ONLY point or do we have to discuss another?

How about knowledge and common sense? Why is it some people do not need to deposit, and others need to deposit shitloads?

 

[wizzszz]

How about knowledge and common sense? Why is it some people do not need to deposit, and others need to deposit shitloads?

Knowledge & Common sense = skills... at least by the definition of skill-based games - but not of any influence to the major three professions in EU whatsoever.

Why some people have to deposit shitloads and other don't is... well.. a different matter and actually, i am far beyond bored by this discussion already.

Just let me add this: As long as you happily keep playing and keep losing and keep depo'ing you will lose. However, those "losses" are not really a "i pay more" when you loot back all the accumulated losses some day in the future in a fat ath... if it evens out to your fixed percentage all is fine and you didn't pay a higher fee than anyone else.

Oh, and ofc, you can make a nice profit when you keep an eye on the markup of your loots... or sell off your skills,.... yada yada....

 

[Mr Trayles]

The games are skill based, thats why it is not gambling... it seems you didnt understand it, because im very familiar with the legal aspects of skillbased vs. luck based games.

Now, where are RL skills involved in EU (and we are not talking about trading and such, nooo, just the main 3 professions)

Tell me just this, then you have all info you need about your "skill based" business models and how they do not apply to EU.

Ok, so... was that your ONLY point or do we have to discuss another?

It is considered gambling if luck and chance predominate over skill. There are way too many aspects here to consider this game to be predominately luck. Killing a mob can't be considered luck. Making a trade can't be considered luck. Roaming the countryside can't be considered luck. Chatting with friends can't be considered luck. Teleporting to CND can't be considered luck. Buying something at auction can't be considered luck. Mentoring someone can't be considered luck. I could go on and on here. The only thing that could be considered luck is the amount of loot you get and that is shakey since you might not have even put any money down as a risk. On top of that, there are so many theories (some inside this wayward thread) that your loot is based on factors other than luck, like what weapon you used.

I know that this arguement, despite being correct, will not stop the gambling debate as some people obviously want it to be gambling. But you might consider taking it else where as this tangent, among others, has really put the original thread's subject way off course.

(Although I secretly love how crazy this thread has become!!)

 

[Witte]

Knowledge & Common sense = skills... at least by the definition of skill-based games - but not of any influence to the major three professions in EU whatsoever.

Proof?

Why some people have to deposit shitloads and other don't is... well.. a different matter and actually, i am far beyond bored by this discussion already.

Just let me add this: As long as you happily keep playing and keep losing and keep depo'ing you will lose. However, those "losses" are not really a "i pay more" when you loot back all the accumulated losses some day in the future in a fat ath... if it evens out to your fixed percentage all is fine and you didn't pay a higher fee than anyone else.

Oh, and ofc, you can make a nice profit when you keep an eye on the markup of your loots... or sell off your skills,.... yada yada....

You believe what you want, I believe what I want. As long as we are not going to shout that our personal believes are the define absolute truth like some maniac fundamentalist, everything is fine. I hope I made you realize that its not all that black and white as you thought, and there are numerous shades of colors possible.

 

[wizzszz]

Proof?

Dis-proof?

You came up with the skill based business model - and moreover, i pay 1K EFD to anyone with a serious suggestion how the ingame professions might depend on RL skills - i didn't find any relation.

You believe what you want, I believe what I want. As long as we are not going to shout that our personal believes are the define absolute truth like some maniac fundamentalist, everything is fine. I hope I made you realize that its not all that black and white as you thought, and there are numerous shades of colors possible.

This is a game, developed by people - there are for sure no inbuilt gray shades, there is a mathematical, logical way how things work:
After all, it is not even close to the 10.000s of tiny things that influence the outcome of i.e. throwing a dice - this is a computer algorithm, limited amount of input, limited amount of output, and it produces exactly the same results if all variables used as input are the same (time being one of them, important factor for a function to generate pseudo-random results) - see them in action now... inside Entropia Universe!!!!

 

[Witte]

Dis-proof?

You came up with the skill based business model - and moreover, i pay 1K EFD to anyone with a serious suggestion how the ingame professions might depend on RL skills - i didn't find any relation.

I am not making a claim. I merely say it could be the case. If you claim it cant, you have to come with prove why not.

I already brought up that knowledge has a significant influence on your ROI. Why wouldn't this already be enough for EU not being classed as gambling? Maybe it is not enough, if so please show me.

This is a game, developed by people - there are for sure no inbuilt gray shades, there is a mathematical, logical way how things work:
After all, it is not even close to the 10.000s of tiny things that influence the outcome of i.e. throwing a dice - this is a computer algorithm, limited amount of input, limited amount of output, and it produces exactly the same results if all variables used as input are the same (time being one of them, imporant factor for a function to generate pseudo-random results - see them in action now... in EU!!!! )

For example that fee based model.

 

[wizzszz]

I already brought up that knowledge has a significant influence on your ROI. Why wouldn't this already be enough for EU not being classed as gambling? Maybe it is not enough, if so please show me.

We didn't talk about ROI here, by no means - we were only talking about TT return - and if YOU claim that knowledge influences your TT return, YOU are the one who has to provide proof - until then, i will simply dispute it.
(heck, a single weird idea on how skills could influence TT return percentage on the long run would be far more than i'd ever expect)

And we are talking about a significant influence here - knowing that winning the lottery will yield far less "ROI" when you pick birthdates as your lucky numbers is no significant influence - or is lottery skill-based now, too - and no longer gambling?

 

[Witte]

We didn't talk about ROI here, by no means - we were only talking about TT return - and if YOU claim that knowledge influences your TT return, YOU are the one who has to provide proof - until then, i will simply dispute it.
(heck, a single weird idea on how skills could influence TT return percentage on the long run would be far more than i'd ever expect)

And we are talking about a significant influence here - knowing that winning the lottery will yield far less "ROI" when you pick birthdates as your lucky numbers is no significant influence - or is lottery skill-based now, too - and no longer gambling?

Yes I also mean TT ROI. And about the prove, its not provable. There is however very strong evidence. Running around with very low skills using inefficient weapons and items hunting way to big mobs have given many people very bad returns. I doubt you disagree, but if so I encourage you to test it yourself.

 

[JohnCapital]

While I enjoy reading the debate between you guys about how the loot system works, I'm unsure of how it directly connects to the OPs issue of exactly when hunting loot is generated.

 

[Atraie]

Its relevant.

Discussing what is pregenerated, or generated at time of loot. There are many factors to consider. Is TT value pre generated. How about an uncommon item/loot multiplier, etc. Even if nothing is pregenerated skills could still theoretically mean something, if you 'followed the skils' maybe you will get a better loot generated.

Its relevant, but its also all speculation, no real way to prove it.

 

[wizzszz]

Yes I also mean TT ROI. And about the prove, its not provable. There is however very strong evidence. Running around with very low skills using inefficient weapons and items hunting way to big mobs have given many people very bad returns. I doubt you disagree, but if so I encourage you to test it yourself.

I do disagree - my hit ability for laser rifles is like 15 levels above my laser handgun (well, it is now - it were >20 as i started using HGs), yet i don't have any noticeable difference in % TT return - my handgun results are even slightly better, as i get the paybacks in smaller but more globals.

I hardly use SIB guns as a matter of principle - but does the lower average damage and the higher misses result in a significant lower TT% return? NO

I used SIB guns a lot during the last 2 Mayhem events, and TT return was pretty much the same - i just lost a shitload of cash on the markup i paid for the guns (200%+ during mayhem for a LR59... bloody resellers)

Some people who don't give a damn 'bout eco have more hofs than you and me combined in half the time... what does that tell us about "inefficient weapons"?

I partially agree when it comes to armor decay at low evader/dodger levels, but thats about it.


If you do mining runs (which is easier to calc, as it is always same costs/drop), it is pretty obvious how the system works:

If you do 100 bomb runs, you might end up with 30% or 300% return - if you calc this over 2 or 3K bomb runs, the return is surprisingly stable - just dont skill up

 

[Oleg]

That are 3rd party fees, MA doesn't earn anything on it...

You're missing the point. The part about the fees isn't really relevant, I only mentioned it so no-one would bother pulling me up on a triviality.

Depo $100, get 1000 PEDs. The cost of service is entirely transparent, and it's the same for everyone.

What you do with those PEDs is your responsibility, just like it's your responsibility what you do with a tin of beans that you buy from the supermarket. If you only eat half of them, would you accuse the supermarket of scamming you out of half a tin of beans?

 

[wizzszz]

You're missing the point. The part about the fees isn't really relevant, I only mentioned it so no-one would bother pulling me up on a triviality.

Depo $100, get 1000 PEDs. The cost of service is entirely transparent, and it's the same for everyone.

Interesting angle of view... but completely off-topic when it comes to loot.

I take it you expect 0 return then when you go out hunting with those 1K peds? You are aware that depo'ing =/= using the service MA provides (read: playing the non-game), yes?

What you do with those PEDs is your responsibility, just like it's your responsibility what you do with a tin of beans that you buy from the supermarket. If you only eat half of them, would you accuse the supermarket of scamming you out of half a tin of beans?

I'd expect the tin of beans to be full when i buy one...

wait, are you saying MA takes 100% fee? This way you'll be happy when you get 10% TT return: "wow, i expected 0%!! im so happy!"


/Edit:
Ok, thinking it over i'd say you indeed expect MA to charge 100% and then pay out to random guys (free gifts as it is now all MAs money) - this would be, at least everywhere in the western world, a damn cheap attempt to dodge the gambling laws, and i am 100% sure the swedish gambling commission will not even argue and shut down such a "service" in a wink.