MA is not a casino... proof

[DarkFire]

You have no idea what i'm talking about it seems, as you randomly put flaws into my theory which show's you have no idea what you talk about.

Then correct me
How does your "system" allow for the exact same results a random system would? What would NOT happen in your system, that happens in a random one?

 

[Seoul]

Just My Two Pecs AGAIN...

You have no idea what i'm talking about it seems, as you randomly put flaws into my theory which show's you have no idea what you talk about.

EU is Casino...

Now, in the back rooms, it is skills...reading who you are playing and reading the cards...SKILLS are important....(the world cup of Poker for example)

In the front rooms, it is pure chance...

In the first the Casino, takes a cut, a small one, of each game..in the front, they make a killing with the odds...

Now, PLEASE, tell me how this is different..

Here, the back rooms are the skilled players...

Here, the found rooms are people putting coins in slots..


What is the difference...I know..

The difference, at least for MA's country is simple, to them a 'real' Casino, is just offering a 'feature', the back room is not a part of the 'real' Casino, it's a 'sport'....and does not figure into the over all mix...THE DIFFERENCE

BUT, in the U.S., this 'feature' is still a part of the Casino...but not in MA's wonderland up in Sweden. So, in the end, Sweden says its not gambling, but in the U.S. they say it is..

Yes, MA went to Washington and put their side on the table, but that was for, as I remember for the tax aspect, Washington has not really looked at the gambling side yet...and that is a big YET..

but, again, just my take on things,

I'm sure many where will love to point how how I'm wrong...but I do hope they know U.S. law better then many of the posters on this thread..

In other words..

"In my country, smoking grass is fine, no problems.."

"In my country, smoking grass can cost you your life..."

And I'm sorry to say that is the same here, look outside of your box and into other peoples...

End of Rant

Seoul..

 

[TheVoid]

yes EU is a casino, and someone that tells otherwise doesn't know how casinos work these days.....

 

[Mice]

EU is a lobster pie with whipped cream on top, McCormick told me

 

[Mr Trayles]

...is to me quite an annoying quote, because it lumps together two distinctly difference groups of people: those who believe something isn't true, and those who don't believe something is true.

And yet, with both groups here, I have seen no one swayed by the other sides arguement. Thus the quote stands and you will have to live with it.

This arguement will never, ever, be solved here in this forum.

 

[Legion]

Then correct me
How does your "system" allow for the exact same results a random system would? What would NOT happen in your system, that happens in a random one?

the thing with the way i say it works ma has EXACT control over the system. They now exactly what loots will come ut or rather the system knows. In a random system they would have less control. And also my system is actually more simple than a random one just because you have more controll. And also my system goes around the lotterylaw which a random one does not. A random system could work around it with my theory on skillgains however my system would allow more controll over it. i just posted my second handin on my thesis on the forum btw.

 

[Johny Ptolemeus]

EU is a damn Casino.

 

[Lykke]

the thing with the way i say it works ma has EXACT control over the system. They now exactly what loots will come ut or rather the system knows. In a random system they would have less control. And also my system is actually more simple than a random one just because you have more controll. And also my system goes around the lotterylaw which a random one does not. A random system could work around it with my theory on skillgains however my system would allow more controll over it. i just posted my second handin on my thesis on the forum btw.

They don't have less controle in a random system. They might also have both, you know.

They are able to choose what loot is being looted from which mobs. But it's random who gets it. But I also believe that they can choose who gets a special loot, if they really wish too ...

It's like having a hat with 1000 little notes - all with numbers from 1-1000 and you know that number 10 is the lucky number where you win 1000 peds. Then you ask 1000 people to draw a number ...

 

[DarkFire]

the thing with the way i say it works ma has EXACT control over the system. They now exactly what loots will come ut or rather the system knows. In a random system they would have less control.

Nonsense.
If i can create a random system that favors "the house" I would think so can MA. And even with this system, the gambling, they have many other streams of income that gives the user nothing (in the way of tt value) in return.

And also my system is actually more simple than a random one just because you have more controll.

That, in fact, makes it less simple.
Complexity:
In general usage, complexity tends to be used to characterize something with many parts in intricate arrangement.

This is the opposite of simple.

And also my system goes around the lotterylaw which a random one does not.

Imagine three players:
Player A is lvl 1 laser pistoleer and hunt atrox young with korss 400.
Player B is lvl 30 laser pistoleer and hunt atrox young with korss 400.
Player C is lvl 30 brawler and hunts atrox young with mux-1 energy glove (about 2.1 dmg/pec according to wiki)

Imagine their results after a few thousand ped of hunting and tell me how skills and knowledge doesn't matter in a random system.

 

[Legion]

They don't have less controle in a random system. They might also have both, you know.

They are able to choose what loot is being looted from which mobs. But it's random who gets it. But I also believe that they can choose who gets a special loot, if they really wish too ...

It's like having a hat with 1000 little notes - all with numbers from 1-1000 and you know that number 10 is the lucky number where you win 1000 peds. Then you ask 1000 people to draw a number ...

which would make it a pure lottery, which simply is not allowed in sweden (without a license)

 

[Witte]

which would make it a pure lottery, which simply is not allowed in sweden (without a license)

You seem to ignore the fact that a non-random system that appears random for humans is called a pseudo random system, which is considered as random by the lottery inspection. It would only work if people are aware of it and the system is easy enough for the majority to understand and use. So this trick does not work to circumvent the lottery inspection. They are not stupid.

 

[Chrome]

which would make it a pure lottery, which simply is not allowed in sweden (without a license)

I wonder if the ONLY reason MA is able to not be labeled as a "pure lottery" is because the"loot system" based activities (hunting/crafti/mining) are not the ONLY things you can do in Entropia.

I mean, you can sweat....

...and, you can chat....

... and, there's always trading.

Maybe, in essence, that is the difference.
I'll submit my thesis for review on EF tomorrow.

 

[TimUnleashed]

And yet, with both groups here, I have seen no one swayed by the other sides arguement. Thus the quote stands and you will have to live with it.

This arguement will never, ever, be solved here in this forum.

Ha it's a fair call: it may never be solved here in this forum. I think that must be because we have people that require evidence and reason to form their beliefs, arguing with people who don't require evidence and reason to form their beliefs. For both sides, it's like arguing with a wall

 

[Pogny]

blahblahblahbla

come on MA, give us the fucking looting algorithm

and we will see the random factor ...

 

[GoNi]

And as you can see in the game if we talking about the mobs fast regen,hp and power ---> Atrox young gives much better loot overall then atrox stalker.

That may happen!
Youngs are much more hunted than Stalkers.
Both contribute to the same loot pool (Atrox).

Much more youngs get killed, the chance of a real big loot in a young is higher than in a Stalker, as there are more killed!

On the other hand it would need a direct test!
Kill 1k Atrox Stalkers, and then kill 1k Atrox youngs and compare total loot.

You may notice the same with Ambu.

 

[alh]

The most common way to circumvent the "lottery law" in sweden is to add a factor of skill. It does not have to be a lot of skill.
The core mechanism can still be purely random.

(I'm talking real life skill here, the lottery inspection of course couldn't care less about the in-game asset called "skill")

Best example is those "game shows" on TV that send on the "bad times" of the day, where you can call in and answer silly questions.
The skill part here is really minimal like "find a word in this grid" with a difficulty level so anyone can do it.
But the real discriminator of who wins and who loses is purely random, call in, and you have a (small and undisclosed) chance to get through to answer the silly question.
Question can be answered by anyone with half a brain, its just there to bypass lottery laws...

In Entropia, they COULD just let the core system be random, and then claim the skill is determining what to do and when.
That because there is ALSO a market on top of the core TT-based system, where you have to determine what you should try to get, and with what tools for maximum payout.
Let odds fluctuate (randomly) with time, have different odds for different activities, and you can also claim there take skill to know when to do what because of that.
They also add lots of tools with different stats, which you have to use "skill" to chose between, and it takes "skill" to read up on what mobs are where and loot what, is sensible to kill with what equipment, etc.
This should be plenty enough for bypassing the "lottery law" and the core system can still be quite random when it comes to TT payout.

This is very simple to implement, and very simple to control, and very safe from any type of tampering.

So its a good guess on how it actually works...

And imo, it would be the most fair, the more strange hooks and paybacks and "systems" you add, the higher the chance they mess up...

 

[Witte]

The most common way to circumvent the "lottery law" in sweden is to add a factor of skill. It does not have to be a lot of skill.
The core mechanism can still be purely random.

(I'm talking real life skill here, the lottery inspection of course couldn't care less about the in-game asset called "skill")

Best example is those "game shows" on TV that send on the "bad times" of the day, where you can call in and answer silly questions.
The skill part here is really minimal like "find a word in this grid" with a difficulty level so anyone can do it.
But the real discriminator of who wins and who loses is purely random, call in, and you have a (small and undisclosed) chance to get through to answer the silly question.
Question can be answered by anyone with half a brain, its just there to bypass lottery laws...

In Holland these games are no longer allowed exactly for this reason.

In Entropia, they COULD just let the core system be random, and then claim the skill is determining what to do and when.
That because there is ALSO a market on top of the core TT-based system, where you have to determine what you should try to get, and with what tools for maximum payout.
Let odds fluctuate (randomly) with time, have different odds for different activities, and you can also claim there take skill to know when to do what because of that.
They also add lots of tools with different stats, which you have to use "skill" to chose between, and it takes "skill" to read up on what mobs are where and loot what, is sensible to kill with what equipment, etc.
This should be plenty enough for bypassing the "lottery law" and the core system can still be quite random when it comes to TT payout.

This is very simple to implement, and very simple to control, and very safe from any type of tampering.

So its a good guess on how it actually works...

And imo, it would be the most fair, the more strange hooks and paybacks and "systems" you add, the higher the chance they mess up...

Exactly how I see it too. It is the most simple explanation, which usually is the correct one .

 

[Lavawalker]

What you have stated above alh is fair spot on with what has been demonstrated via public communique with the swedish authorities registrar in this thread.

LINK > https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...180259-entropia-universe-gambling-thesis.html

Unfortunately if this is found to be the case, Australians will be denied further access to the Entropia service through enforcing the Australian government parliamentary IGA 2001 ACT, making it both illegal for Australian residents to use Entropia and for MindArk & partners to provide the service to Australians

I personally could not see the Australian Tax Office allowing any service through the gap which is not audited annually by the IGA in providing their new taxation schedule where we will be required to report quarterly our virtual asset, earning & loss estimates if a business or yearly in our normal tax return with other sources of income & expenses.

 

[Mega]

I dont think EU is a casino, but you can choose to play it as one if you wish to.


As to "cracking the system" I think there is too much built in randomness to be able to predict anything more accurately than suggesting (for example) when you see LOTS of Prots globalling and Hofing, that there will be an ATH sometime in the near future.

 

[alh]

In Holland these games are no longer allowed exactly for this reason..

Good thing. extremely unfair those shows. No doubt very profitable...

I remember seeing these in holland before they came to sweden and thinking "how can this be legal?" and my swedish arrogance was thinking "This could never be allowed in sweden"
Then not long after they appeared in sweden too, and I had to read up on how they could be legal... and found the "skill" backdoor...
Another lose for the swedish arrogance
Double lose that they are now outlawed in holland

Havn't heard any public outcry on them yet though, so probably will be allowed here for some time still.

 

[valentin]

Personally, I think that is always the MA's famous "dynamics" or "balance" is based on an average TT - loot in % who you getting back and you getting back often between 20% -90% and more rare between 90% - 105% off that worth you put in in the game and all this makes that you cant call the game for lottery.

This provides a basis for the game can not be called gambling.

Now we look at the other side off the game and there are everything lottey ( the globals and hofs ) and ( items in loot ) and your skills only makes you to be able to buy more lottery tickets for same amount off money.

Then you have to look for the price of the ticket and it is based on what you want to do and at what lvl stronger mob less % off geting something but there is a bigger chance for "luck".


This is the economic base between the company and us.

What we sell and buy is only one economy between os players and thats whay the TT-value on items is so low so the company dont lose money off what we sell or buy between os.

The only company doing that is that they control how many items there should be in the game.

Now we are coming to the dark side.

I am convinced that there is avatars with more "luck" reason for this I do not know but I usually call it "public relations".

 

[GoNi]

I know this shows, they exist in germany as well.
Same backdoor in law used to be legal in germany

For EU I think it will be much easyer to be legal in germany, as its possible to play this game without a single deposit. Therefor it can´t be gambling, as in german law you need to pay for gambling otherwise it isn´t gambling.

Another thing is money payouts, MA removed PED from loot. Next backdoor in german law. No money as prize = no gambling

From law side EU definately isn´t gambling (german law), although it could be used for gambling if you want to!

 

[Lavawalker]

Personally, I think that is always the MA's famous "dynamics" or "balance" is based on an average TT - loot in % who you getting back and you getting back often between 20% -90% and more rare between 90% - 105% off that worth you put in in the game and all this makes that you cant call the game for lottery.

This provides a basis for the game can not be called gambling.

Now we look at the other side off the game and there are everything lottey ( the globals and hofs ) and ( items in loot ) and your skills only makes you to be able to buy more lottery tickets for same amount off money.

Yes there are two sides to the equation.

Return on TT with the mindark & partner fee taken out for the service rendered over a nominated accounting period.

Then there are other elements involved with the internal economy forces.

From what I understand with reference to the situation Australians find themselves in with the ATO & IGA, the set return rate is the most important on base TT - The flow of finance through the Mindark coded system and the return of this finance in what the IGA would assess to be an ethical timeframe (ie. Not accumulated over many sittings/sessions) where there is "minimal potential" of "unintentional theft" by MindArk of the participants' funds if the participant decides to pack-up and leave and never return.

^^ The funds accounted for in the accounting system for return at any point would not be significant enough to be deemed stealing nor as a "psychological gambling factor" known as the "gambling hook" where-by people are driven usually "out of character" to reclaim finances that are still owed to them through further participation.

The other side of the equation involves what I have outlined in these these posts:

Defining dynamic & random:

LINK > https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...n/182098-they-call-dynamic-7.html#post2338392

Addressing internal economy forces:

LINK > https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...n/182098-they-call-dynamic-7.html#post2338702

Addressing gameplay elements which impact economic undertakings in the RCE environment:

LINK > https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...n/182098-they-call-dynamic-8.html#post2338768

^^ Links in the last one to provide examples with reference to item T.I.Rs with the recently released tiering system.

 

[valentin]

I know this shows, they exist in germany as well.
Same backdoor in law used to be legal in germany

For EU I think it will be much easyer to be legal in germany, as its possible to play this game without a single deposit. Therefor it can´t be gambling, as in german law you need to pay for gambling otherwise it isn´t gambling.

Another thing is money payouts, MA removed PED from loot. Next backdoor in german law. No money as prize = no gambling

From law side EU definately isn´t gambling (german law), although it could be used for gambling if you want to!

I agree with you to 100% + rep

From law side EU definately isn´t gambling (german law), although it could be used for gambling if you want to! - - - > And i think they do that as much they are able to do it.

 

[Lavawalker]

I know this shows, they exist in germany as well.
Same backdoor in law used to be legal in germany

For EU I think it will be much easyer to be legal in germany, as its possible to play this game without a single deposit. Therefor it can´t be gambling, as in german law you need to pay for gambling otherwise it isn´t gambling.

Another thing is money payouts, MA removed PED from loot. Next backdoor in german law. No money as prize = no gambling

From law side EU definately isn´t gambling (german law), although it could be used for gambling if you want to!

You forget in your assessment one key point.

Unless ofc your referring to accumulating 1,000 units of sweat, dung or fruit for each and every pec

The point is here in bold in the quoted post linked below and is what our authority in Australia is assessing what you have "mis-represented" about Entropia upon.

Money is money whether it is deposited or "earned" from another who paid

LINK > https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...island-open-beta-2-3weeks-12.html#post2330206

.

 

[Mr Trayles]

Ha it's a fair call: it may never be solved here in this forum. I think that must be because we have people that require evidence and reason to form their beliefs, arguing with people who don't require evidence and reason to form their beliefs. For both sides, it's like arguing with a wall

While some people will require evidence and reason to sway their position, I believe that, for the most part, it is because people believe what they wish to believe.

 

[DoubleWolf]

I've been following https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/mining/170763-vigi-mining-log.html and took it upon myself to copy down all his TT spent vs TT returned. He's been tracking all his mining runs since November and spent nearly 50,000 PED. I took his runs and charted his TT profit/loss over his TT value spent and posted this graph in his thread:

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

You can't look at that obvious slope and tell me the system is random. He hasn't hit any large uber loots but has been able to profit over 3,000 ped in that time. I think loots of that type may be totally random, but it's also those types of loots that throw off everyone's perception of how loot works. Stop playing for the ATH. Assume you will never get one. If you do, it's a nice bonus. Otherwise, your returns will look just like those in the chart...

 

[Legion]

You seem to ignore the fact that a non-random system that appears random for humans is called a pseudo random system, which is considered as random by the lottery inspection. It would only work if people are aware of it and the system is easy enough for the majority to understand and use. So this trick does not work to circumvent the lottery inspection. They are not stupid.

No if the system is not random then it is not random, in the sence of the law that is. How the users see it has nothing to do with this.

I wonder if the ONLY reason MA is able to not be labeled as a "pure lottery" is because the"loot system" based activities (hunting/crafti/mining) are not the ONLY things you can do in Entropia.

I mean, you can sweat....

...and, you can chat....

... and, there's always trading.

Maybe, in essence, that is the difference.
I'll submit my thesis for review on EF tomorrow.

Nope, if the system is random then it is random and it would be a lottery. Last answer from the lotteryinspection said so.

The most common way to circumvent the "lottery law" in sweden is to add a factor of skill. It does not have to be a lot of skill.
The core mechanism can still be purely random.

(I'm talking real life skill here, the lottery inspection of course couldn't care less about the in-game asset called "skill")

Best example is those "game shows" on TV that send on the "bad times" of the day, where you can call in and answer silly questions.
The skill part here is really minimal like "find a word in this grid" with a difficulty level so anyone can do it.
But the real discriminator of who wins and who loses is purely random, call in, and you have a (small and undisclosed) chance to get through to answer the silly question.
Question can be answered by anyone with half a brain, its just there to bypass lottery laws...

In Entropia, they COULD just let the core system be random, and then claim the skill is determining what to do and when.
That because there is ALSO a market on top of the core TT-based system, where you have to determine what you should try to get, and with what tools for maximum payout.
Let odds fluctuate (randomly) with time, have different odds for different activities, and you can also claim there take skill to know when to do what because of that.
They also add lots of tools with different stats, which you have to use "skill" to chose between, and it takes "skill" to read up on what mobs are where and loot what, is sensible to kill with what equipment, etc.
This should be plenty enough for bypassing the "lottery law" and the core system can still be quite random when it comes to TT payout.

This is very simple to implement, and very simple to control, and very safe from any type of tampering.

So its a good guess on how it actually works...

And imo, it would be the most fair, the more strange hooks and paybacks and "systems" you add, the higher the chance they mess up...

as for the marketpart, if i understand what you meant correctly. It has nothing to do with if the system is a lottery or not. The lotteryinspection said that if the system is random and you win something and for example can sell this to someone, it would still be a lottery as the win was generated in a random way.

The only way around it would be to as you say implement real skills in some way or form. And yes your probably correct with the tools part and such but i also belive the skills tell you where to go and so on.

Personally, I think that is always the MA's famous "dynamics" or "balance" is based on an average TT - loot in % who you getting back and you getting back often between 20% -90% and more rare between 90% - 105% off that worth you put in in the game and all this makes that you cant call the game for lottery.

This provides a basis for the game can not be called gambling.

Now we look at the other side off the game and there are everything lottey ( the globals and hofs ) and ( items in loot ) and your skills only makes you to be able to buy more lottery tickets for same amount off money.

Then you have to look for the price of the ticket and it is based on what you want to do and at what lvl stronger mob less % off geting something but there is a bigger chance for "luck".


This is the economic base between the company and us.

What we sell and buy is only one economy between os players and thats whay the TT-value on items is so low so the company dont lose money off what we sell or buy between os.

The only company doing that is that they control how many items there should be in the game.

Now we are coming to the dark side.

I am convinced that there is avatars with more "luck" reason for this I do not know but I usually call it "public relations".

same thing applies here as i stated above, if the system is random then it's a lottery, doesnt matter if you get back an average on 90% or 105% and so on. the win has still been generated by a random system and thus a lottery.

 

[Naverith]

I've said it once and I'll say it again:

It's all in how you hold your mouth....

 

[DarkFire]

You can't look at that obvious slope and tell me the system is random.

Take a standard 6 sided die. 1 and 2 means +1. 3, 4, 5 and 6 means -1.
Start rolling and plot it into a graph. You'll get something that looks exactly like that.

In other words, if a player on average has a return of 70%-90%, how could the graph look any different?

The only way around it would be to as you say implement real skills in some way or form.

From what i understand from the others, "real skills" may be as simple as aiming and shooting at the mob.