Info: Small gloms to how loot works

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Okay their has ben lots of speculation as to how loot works lately and to save myself from saying the same thing in a half dozen other threads I decided to clarify a couple things that I have discovered;
1)You will gain 85-90% of what you spend, not what you deposit.
2)There is a small luck factor for "promotional" loots, fairly sure that considering the rarity of them that it comes from the 10-15% that players loose to MA.
3)Those "welcome back" hof's are just the system paying you back for any deficit owed, I think to make calculations easy a full pay back of any remaining loot owed from the pool is initiated at the end of each quarter. I haven't tested this third point though, I can't seem to stay away for more then a few days
4)as far as I can tell what you get in loot is indeed dynamic, likely a loot algorithm designed to distribute items that looks something like this, x number of items in play/ x number of active players. If the ratio of item to player is unbalanced then the item will drop more or less as needed. This keeps the rare items rare and the common items common and everything else in-between.

There, all clear now? Well if not I'm not releasing anymore, last time someone figured out how loot worked and made that find public MA changed it

EDIT: I have no idea where "gloms" came from in the tittle it was supposed to say "points"

 

[RJ-Rob]

Okay their has ben lots of speculation as to how loot works lately and to save myself from saying the same thing in a half dozen other threads I decided to clarify a couple things that I have discovered;
1)You will gain 85-90% of what you spend, not what you deposit.
2)There is a small luck factor for "promotional" loots, fairly sure that considering the rarity of them that it comes from the 10-15% that players loose to MA.
3)Those "welcome back" hof's are just the system paying you back for any deficit owed, I think to make calculations easy a full pay back of any remaining loot owed from the pool is initiated at the end of each quarter. I haven't tested this third point though, I can't seem to stay away for more then a few days
4)as far as I can tell what you get in loot is indeed dynamic, likely a loot algorithm designed to distribute items that looks something like this, x number of items in play/ x number of active players. If the ratio of item to player is unbalanced then the item will drop more or less as needed. This keeps the rare items rare and the common items common and everything else in-between.

There, all clear now? Well if not I'm not releasing anymore, last time someone figured out how loot worked and made that find public MA changed it

EDIT: I have no idea where "gloms" came from in the tittle it was supposed to say "points"

hehehe, the secret is now out hahahaha

i think the majority of players know these basic ideas hehe it is logical explainations

RJ Rob

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

hehehe, the secret is now out hahahaha

i think the majority of players know these basic ideas hehe it is logical explainations

RJ Rob

I though so too, but so many people seem oblivious to them that I had to post the basics. Although numbers five through eleven are my secret

 

[xillonz]

Noooooooooooooo, these sorts of posts are what continues the weird loot theories.

You can't just go "I have discovered these things", and then list a bunch of controversial statements.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Noooooooooooooo, these sorts of posts are what continues the weird loot theories.

You can't just go "I have discovered these things", and then list a bunch of controversial statements.

I never said anyone had to believe them, but people will be better off if they do. Any weird loot theories that derive from this are either because I was not clear or someone did not understand. But like the sub forum states, "loot theories" meaning I have not been able to conclusively prove any of this as fact, but like most things a small leap of faith is required.

 

[xillonz]

My point was just that you are asserting these controversial statements without any sort of support. The claims you made are not obvious.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

My point was just that you are asserting these controversial statements without any sort of support. The claims you made are not obvious.

Okay for one I tracked the spending of several RL friends that I got to create new avatars and play for six months, all of them where at 85-90% long term returns. The gear they used only seemed to matter in the short term, all those who used maxed SIB weapons continuously did have a slight advantage over those who did not.

Number two explains the "promotional" globals/hofs based on their rarity it is a stretch to believe that those are paid for out of other peoples loots, especially since point one shows that you pay for your own loot, unless you get one of these "promotional" hits.

I recently had a few friends who have been missing for several months come back to EU, all of them said they quite because of low returns. Most of them came back just to calculate their skills value to see if it was worth selling them and some went on "one last hunt for old times". Those who went on those hunts got globals and hofs that paid back the difference from their low return period.

Four is one part logic, one part faith, one part based on discussions that I have had with players who have been here since(or near to) the start. Most of them said they noticed a trend of items dropping more or less depending on how many of that item where in play. One example that I was given, and I was able to test this much myself, was that near the end of summer you end up with more variety in loot. This because many people don't play during the summer but their avatars are still active according to the system so any loot they have on them/in storage is still considered in play. The system is trying to pay out loot based on this algorithm but common and uncommon drops are becoming too common without more players, thus you end up with a lot of small stack of "filler" and low TT (L) items. Everyone comes back and loot starts dispensing normally.

 

[xillonz]

Okay for one I tracked the spending of several RL friends that I got to create new avatars and play for six months, all of them where at 85-90% long term returns. The gear they used only seemed to matter in the short term, all those who used maxed SIB weapons continuously did have a slight advantage over those who did not.

Number two explains the "promotional" globals/hofs based on their rarity it is a stretch to believe that those are paid for out of other peoples loots, especially since point one shows that you pay for your own loot, unless you get one of these "promotional" hits.

I recently had a few friends who have been missing for several months come back to EU, all of them said they quite because of low returns. Most of them came back just to calculate their skills value to see if it was worth selling them and some went on "one last hunt for old times". Those who went on those hunts got globals and hofs that paid back the difference from their low return period.

Four is one part logic, one part faith, one part based on discussions that I have had with players who have been here since(or near to) the start. Most of them said they noticed a trend of items dropping more or less depending on how many of that item where in play. One example that I was given, and I was able to test this much myself, was that near the end of summer you end up with more variety in loot. This because many people don't play during the summer but their avatars are still active according to the system so any loot they have on them/in storage is still considered in play. The system is trying to pay out loot based on this algorithm but common and uncommon drops are becoming too common without more players, thus you end up with a lot of small stack of "filler" and low TT (L) items. Everyone comes back and loot starts dispensing normally.

Unfortunately, all this is weak support for the claims you made.

Your first claim is ambiguious, perhaps it just requires clearing up.
It could mean: anyone, no matter what they do, will expect to get 85 - 90% TT return.
Alternatively: typically, you would expect to get 85 - 90% TT return.

The latter is a lot more plausible than the former. Your evidence for the claim is weak for both, but stronger for the latter (which I think is somewhat established from a lot of other published studies).


It's a jump to assume that "propotional loots" exist in the sense that MA/PP has coded particular loots to occur for the sake of promotion. It is also a jump to assume that there exists "other people loot" that promotional loots can be paid out of.


Regarding number 3, this is quite simply a lack of evidence. People easily suffer from a confirmation bias (accepting evidence that confirms a hypothesis and ignoring/not looking for evidence that falsifies it). Until we saw a large sample, with the number for both those that get abnormally big loots upon return from a hiatus and those that get just normal/bad loot we cant conclude much. A possible explanation for why you hear about this all the time is that people are perhaps more vocal about it when they get a big loot upon return than when they return and just get normal loot.

A similar problem with number 4. Strong evidence is hard to get, especially when generalising a claim. You really need more evidence for it to be enough.


Maybe there should be a sticky in the loot theories sub forum as to "what counts as evidence".

 

[mastermesh]

do we have a new Legion among us?

 

[ermik]

you are close on some points , but as some said , it needs clarification since its too general.

cheers

ermik

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Ive noticed similar patterns.

Of course this wont fly on a forum where folks want to see the numbers, but to be perfectly fair the numbers are just plain not available. You can guesstimate them based on Entropia Tracker, and you can relay people the anecdotes and accounts of your friends, but there's always a hole in a theory and someone is bound to find it.

So the numbers are essentially a waste of time.

That being said, fine post. Explains the system about as well as it should be explained.

 

[NicoleNikiWhite]

Unfortunately, all this is weak support for the claims you made.

Your first claim is ambiguious, perhaps it just requires clearing up.
It could mean: anyone, no matter what they do, will expect to get 85 - 90% TT return.
Alternatively: typically, you would expect to get 85 - 90% TT return.

The latter is a lot more plausible than the former. Your evidence for the claim is weak for both, but stronger for the latter (which I think is somewhat established from a lot of other published studies).


It's a jump to assume that "propotional loots" exist in the sense that MA/PP has coded particular loots to occur for the sake of promotion. It is also a jump to assume that there exists "other people loot" that promotional loots can be paid out of.


Regarding number 3, this is quite simply a lack of evidence. People easily suffer from a confirmation bias (accepting evidence that confirms a hypothesis and ignoring/not looking for evidence that falsifies it). Until we saw a large sample, with the number for both those that get abnormally big loots upon return from a hiatus and those that get just normal/bad loot we cant conclude much. A possible explanation for why you hear about this all the time is that people are perhaps more vocal about it when they get a big loot upon return than when they return and just get normal loot.

A similar problem with number 4. Strong evidence is hard to get, especially when generalising a claim. You really need more evidence for it to be enough.


Maybe there should be a sticky in the loot theories sub forum as to "what counts as evidence".

Agreed, there's nothing "conclusive" about the OP's findings, and they're certainly not "obvious" assumptions.
In order to make a claim that is even near respectable, you would need a much larger sample than "a few RL friends", and definitely more critical data analysis than "observation"~ I'm kind of doubting he requested the total gains of his friends, their costs, etc on a per occasion basis, and more likely made a generalization (which, of course is prone to bias). I do think there are merits in some of the OP's listed theories, but they're not substantiated very well in this post at all, and definitely not conclusively, as stated by xilonz.

 

[ronin warrior]

does anyone know if loot was already assigned to a mob or does it go through a "loot process" when you click loot on a mob you've just killed?

 

[Laradon]

does anyone know if loot was already assigned to a mob or does it go through a "loot process" when you click loot on a mob you've just killed?

I just know that someone tested to not loot and came out with rly rly bad return . So guess you cant stack up by not looting and get it all on 1 in the end. And loot seems to be created by cost of kill -> check thread, help test hunting

 

[HinDragoz]

does anyone know if loot was already assigned to a mob or does it go through a "loot process" when you click loot on a mob you've just killed?

Loot is generated upon looting

 

[ronin warrior]

Loot is generated upon looting

thx for your answer, help me to understand more the workings of this game

 

[kosmos]

Okay their has ben lots of speculation as to how loot works lately and to save myself from saying the same thing in a half dozen other threads I decided to clarify a couple things that I have discovered;
1)You will gain 85-90% of what you spend, not what you deposit.
2)There is a small luck factor for "promotional" loots, fairly sure that considering the rarity of them that it comes from the 10-15% that players loose to MA.
3)Those "welcome back" hof's are just the system paying you back for any deficit owed, I think to make calculations easy a full pay back of any remaining loot owed from the pool is initiated at the end of each quarter. I haven't tested this third point though, I can't seem to stay away for more then a few days
4)as far as I can tell what you get in loot is indeed dynamic, likely a loot algorithm designed to distribute items that looks something like this, x number of items in play/ x number of active players. If the ratio of item to player is unbalanced then the item will drop more or less as needed. This keeps the rare items rare and the common items common and everything else in-between.

There, all clear now? Well if not I'm not releasing anymore, last time someone figured out how loot worked and made that find public MA changed it

EDIT: I have no idea where "gloms" came from in the tittle it was supposed to say "points"

Some people are criticizing the guys opinion, but after looking at others data, my own, and other observations seems to be something to his opinion.

 

[Azrael]

Okay their has ben lots of speculation as to how loot works lately and to save myself from saying the same thing in a half dozen other threads I decided to clarify a couple things that I have discovered;
1)You will gain 85-90% of what you spend, not what you deposit.
2)There is a small luck factor for "promotional" loots, fairly sure that considering the rarity of them that it comes from the 10-15% that players loose to MA.
3)Those "welcome back" hof's are just the system paying you back for any deficit owed, I think to make calculations easy a full pay back of any remaining loot owed from the pool is initiated at the end of each quarter. I haven't tested this third point though, I can't seem to stay away for more then a few days
4)as far as I can tell what you get in loot is indeed dynamic, likely a loot algorithm designed to distribute items that looks something like this, x number of items in play/ x number of active players. If the ratio of item to player is unbalanced then the item will drop more or less as needed. This keeps the rare items rare and the common items common and everything else in-between.

There, all clear now? Well if not I'm not releasing anymore, last time someone figured out how loot worked and made that find public MA changed it

EDIT: I have no idea where "gloms" came from in the tittle it was supposed to say "points"

What type of spending are you refering to? I've bought items from TT, player shops, and auctions, as well as spending on repairs and ammos including synth essence.......but havent even had a global since returning about a month ago ,after a long absence (computer was unable to run cry engine...built new comp) with no "welcome Back" glob either

 

[R4tt3xx]

I got my welcome back global on my +- 20th probe, 320ped with a rookie finder is very good But it all went down-hill after that, like it normally does.

What I have noticed though is a set payout % over a set period of time. So now I am just testing respawn timers and daily loots from set coordinates.

 

[Mischief]

...You can't just go "I have discovered these things", and then list a bunch of controversial statements.

But these statements is hardly controversial.

I just know that someone tested to not loot and came out with rly rly bad return .
...And loot seems to be created by cost of kill...

Hm, not too surprising, loot is bound to be bad if you don't loot... (sorry, had to... )

And yes, it may seem that loot is generated by cost to kill and in a way it is. But if you take loot versus cost to kill and compare over a longer period of time, will there be difference in return percentage on high cost mobs return vs low cost.?
If you do a 1k ped hunt on high cost mobs you will kill x amount of mobs and getting loot accordingly. The same run on a low cost mob will give you more opportunities to loot good, thus even out the difference. Or will it?
Higher risk equals better chance to hit it big but also an increased risk of loosing badly.

 

[Jimmy B]

Okay their has ben lots of speculation as to how loot works lately and to save myself from saying the same thing in a half dozen other threads I decided to clarify a couple things that I have discovered;

As xillonz has pointed out well, really all you have done here is add to that speculation. You have listed theories, not discoveries. My speculations on your speculations are:

1)You will gain 85-90% of what you spend, not what you deposit.

There's a big difference between 85% and 90%. And personally I reckon it's more like 95%. (perhaps the equipment/eco you use does actually matter)

2)There is a small luck factor for "promotional" loots, fairly sure that considering the rarity of them that it comes from the 10-15% that players loose to MA.

Or they could just be part of the normal loot system (pushing us up to that long run 95% figure perhaps). Or they could be special loots generated from stuff like auction fees and ad revenue.

3)Those "welcome back" hof's are just the system paying you back for any deficit owed, I think to make calculations easy a full pay back of any remaining loot owed from the pool is initiated at the end of each quarter. I haven't tested this third point though, I can't seem to stay away for more then a few days

I don't believe any such theory. I've taken plenty of breaks, some many months long. I've had no welcome back hofs. Some people will randomly happen to hof when they come back, hence the theory is born.

4)as far as I can tell what you get in loot is indeed dynamic, likely a loot algorithm designed to distribute items that looks something like this, x number of items in play/ x number of active players. If the ratio of item to player is unbalanced then the item will drop more or less as needed. This keeps the rare items rare and the common items common and everything else in-between.

This would be sensible, but I believe there's a more manual element to it. Item loots tend to come in waves. I remember hunting Fungoid for months and getting no Cosy Candles. Then I got about 20 in a week. Then none again. It's possible someone tt'ed a load of them but their markup was more than their tt so it's more likely someone at MA HQ threw a switch on them and dumped a load into the 'lootpool'.

 

[Menace]

1)You will gain 85-90% of what you spend, not what you deposit.

Ok. Explain why I've deposited 25k U.S. in the past 3 years and I'm WORTH about 3k U.S.? Looks to me like my returns are FAR LESS than 85%

Menace

 

[trance]

All loot theory are dynamic --- loot = (random(x)) plus some other (x) and how large the pool is, but if MA needs cash.. the dynamic change !

 

[Jimmy B]

Ok. Explain why I've deposited 25k U.S. in the past 3 years and I'm WORTH about 3k U.S.? Looks to me like my returns are FAR LESS than 85%

Menace

He means 85% return rate. In other words, spend 100 PED on a hunt - get on average 85 PED back. If you go on another hunt with that 85 PED you'll get on average 85% of 85 PED back. Continuing the cycle, and assuming you cannot cover the losses with markup, you'll end up with 0 PED in the end. The return rate is still 85%.

 

[Menace]

He means 85% return rate. In other words, spend 100 PED on a hunt - get on average 85 PED back. If you go on another hunt with that 85 PED you'll get on average 85% of 85 PED back. Continuing the cycle, and assuming you cannot cover the losses with markup, you'll end up with 0 PED in the end. The return rate is still 85%.

Yeah you're right. That's what screws everyone up and what screwed me up for over a year. My mentality after reading the forums was that I should be WORTH 80% of the TT of ammo spent. So if I spent 10k U.S. and used (L) gear I would estimate that I spent 4k on ammo so I SHOULD be worth 3k (skills and TT of any gear I accumulated). That's the biggest misconception noobs get from these forums and this 85-90% return B.S. people spew about.

If I'm out eco hunting here's what I find. 50-65% return (TT) on average. Then every 2 mths I have a really good week where I get 110% TT return (over the course of that week). Then almost 2 mths of 50-65% again. In the end it MIGHT average out if I hit a 175k ATH sometime soon.... but reality is... a low-mid level hunter using (L) guns is LUCKY to hit 85% after MU. Even during my "good periods" I find myself doing small deposits to buy another (L) gun (though loot has paid back ammo PLUS armor/fap/amp decay which is technically over 100% return).

Now.... Deposit 2k U.S. (or get a 20k + HoF like Corey got) and stack up every single 101% or higher pc of loot and that changes the tables greatly. Problem is.... telling a 1 week old noob to deposit $200 U.S. so he/she can opalo hunt.

Menace

 

[Jimmy B]

If I'm out eco hunting here's what I find. 50-65% return (TT) on average.

I'd love to see your records. I took detailed records for a long time, and like I say, I think the actual figure is higher than the 85%-90% Corey postulated.

Also, since you deposited $25k (!!), please tell me you have at the very least a nice UL gun? Also, if you don't like losing PED but your favourite mob on Tracker is listed as Atrox, you need to rethink how you approach the game.

Now.... Deposit 2k U.S. and stack up every single 101% or higher pc of loot and that changes the tables greatly.

Indeed. Although I don't think anything like that big a deposit is required.

 

[aridash]

about a year ago i had 7k in ped. i started out to complete the atrox Iron mission and a few others along the way. i cycled those few thousand several times. i now have about 6.5k in cash and new items and several tier upgrades, which considering Wof losses but no deposits seems a pretty good year. needless to say, i dont really believe theres a fixed 90% return rate.

 

[Menace]

Also, since you deposited $25k (!!), please tell me you have at the very least a nice UL gun? Also, if you don't like losing PED but your favourite mob on Tracker is listed as Atrox, you need to rethink how you approach the game.

Nah I don't own anything. I deposited 200-300 U.S. at a time. a few days later it'd be gone and I'd do it again (and been doing that for 3 yrs now). This crap about "all avatars being equal" is bullshit too. Someone like myself is recognized as a "cash cow" by the loot system due to my deposit habits. My own fault I know. Reality is.... don't matter what I hunt with, what I hunt, or when I hunt. I lose HUGE. I AVERAGE about 65% TT return on small Levi (which I KNOW I'm gonna lose on but just got sick of counting pennies grinding other low HP mobs). Now if you check my tracker you'll see a bunch of globals/HoF's on em. That equates to my 65% return. I've used Apis/Dante, X1/Dante, all the way down to H400/A105 and my returns on TT of ammo are constant. (Levi don't loot any MU anyway on a regular basis so it's easy to watch TT vs TT with them).

Menace

 

[Jimmy B]

Levi don't loot any MU anyway on a regular basis so it's easy to watch TT vs TT with them.

Well, you still need to account for all the MU you spend.

But, if they don't loot any markup I don't see why you'd hunt them. ATH-hunting I guess, but there's ATH-potential mobs that drop MU out there.

 

[ChronicDeadEye]

Loot is generated upon looting

Speculation. Unless you can give hard evidence from MA stating loot is generated upon looting the creature.