The efficiency of scopes/lasers

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Just wanted to subscribe to this awesome thread ... I have 2x Terrus 600 and a cheap scope (working on that) and they are all fully repaired ... They sit on my Marber and I am doing ever so better with them attached !!

Plus rep for the thread starter for more insight though - great job !! -

ILW
 

Vedder

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To me, the absolutely most important thing in this thread is to get an answer to this question:
Do (repaired) scopes/lasers improve your economy?

The initial (great) test by Recoda points in that direction, but more test data is needed, imo.

The other discussions are all secondary... Until we have enough test data to be sure that it's correct, the other issues are just speculation based on inaccurate data. Not much point in that. The discussions are ofc still very interesting, I'd just prefer to feel more confident in the basics before moving on.

...I created a small application that would register every press on the "1" key. ... I would then setup the "Shift" key to register misses...
Is the app (or maybe better the source) sharable, so we can contribute with more test data?


...
This assumes that the improvement is linear up to 10.0 effective HA (which is reached shortly after 7.0 real HA with 30% mod).
...
You're also assuming that 30% is added to the HA, which might not be how it works. (It would make sense, though)
 

OgiMini

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Recoda bud +++++++++++rep.

Now ur doomed: have to do a gazilion tests:))

Voluntaries!!!plzzzzzzzzzz.
 

Etopia

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Very interesting. Every test I have seen done on this before failed to show any measurable difference whatsoever.
There is one test in that forum that show a diference , but its also the diference is so low that dont pay the atachement decay for crafted atachment.
 

Jimmy B

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Do (repaired) scopes/lasers improve your economy?
Doer's calculation on the previous page suggests that yes is the answer to that.

Jimmy, i took a look at the effects of scoping a maxed SIB weapon with avg dmg/pec of 3.0. If (big if) the hitrate continues to improve beyond 10.0 effective HA, a maxed weapon with the bjornir+2xabrer setup will have just 4.4% misses and need only do 13 dmg to start to see an improvement in economy over the cost of the attachment decay -- a figure which really surprises me! In those circumstances a breer m2a+a102 sees about a 2% increase in economy.

The maximum total skill modification is 61% according to wiki. That would give a hitrate of 0.993 with 10.0 HA, eerily near to 100%. Coincidence?
Interesting, I had assumed that you can only get an effective HA of 10 even after modification but thats not necessarily the case. The figure at the end is indeed quite eerie.
 
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again great job Recoda

now i'm waiting for my uber to repair my attachments to full degree as well as my MM
 

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To me, the absolutely most important thing in this thread is to get an answer to this question:
Do (repaired) scopes/lasers improve your economy?

The initial (great) test by Recoda points in that direction, but more test data is needed, imo.
Yes, of course. We were given an initial hypothesis and some good preliminary results, which also happen to match very well a theoretical model, allowing us to refine the hypothesis and make more predictions. I was making some more predictions as well as drawing some gratuitous conclusions. :ahh: I was careful to point out that they all depend on the hypothesis being true, though. However, i think my last bit there is pretty interesting circumstantial evidence.

I added a larger disclaimer to the preliminary conclusions. :)

Is the app (or maybe better the source) sharable, so we can contribute with more test data?
Always nice for someone else to ask something you want asked. :D

You're also assuming that 30% is added to the HA, which might not be how it works. (It would make sense, though)
Well it did in his first test, which is why i started discussing the repercussions of it.
 
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These tests were done with a Strikehammer (BLP, Rifle). My skills are relatively low on BLP weapons, so I guess the difference would be more significant if I were to use a laser handgun. I may do a couple of other tests later using a handgun, but from now, it appears as if the Modification influences the Hit Ability on the weapon. This basically means that a 4.0 Hit Ability would be increased to 5.92 using a pair of Garguls and a Bjornir. A 6.0 Hit Ability on the other hand would increase to 8.9 Hit Ability.

+rep always like ppl that take time to help others.

Just wondering if lasers improve your hit rate why does the HA figure not change on the guns info panel when you attach the lasers, like it does when you attach amps? surely if your HA went from 4.0 to 5.92 wouldn't it not be shown?

My thoughts and experinces tell me that lasers only add to skill gains and have nothing to do with HA etc. In the past if i forgot to attach lasers i could tell by the slow down in skill gain msg's,(i never noticed any improved dmg etc) however with the recent skill nerf i can no longer tell if i have lasers attached or not by this method!

I think the info panel on lasers is not very clear as MA use the word 'modification', whereas they should probably use the word 'gain' . Is this MA not fully understanding english or do they have other reason for the ambigious word? hmmmm..

Anyway this is just my thoughts on the subject and i could be totaly wrong, as i normally am:ahh: Maybe someone less lazy then me would like to ask support wtf lasers do!!! (and their not allowed to use the word 'modification' in the reply)
 

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Maybe someone less lazy then me would like to ask support wtf lasers do!!! (and their not allowed to use the word 'modification' in the reply)
In Recoda's old thread that he bumped up, support was asked and gave their usual "we cannot reveal game mechanics" slop. I recommend someone who hasn't already used their question ask the balancing manager in the latest Q&A, just in case he decides to give a dispensation in his divine mercy.
 

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In Recoda's old thread that he bumped up, support was asked and gave their usual "we cannot reveal game mechanics" slop.
Ah sry didnt see that, like i said im lazy :laugh:

Anyway the plot thickens why is this info so secret, i see no reason why it should be? only ppl gaining from this non-info/confusion are MA(again!!!). Can't see how telling ppl how lasers work would give anybody a money making advantage, would only save ppl money, hmmm..
 

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wow,i always hunt with loww tt attachments,as well the gunz i hunt with... :scratch2:
so its better to hunt without attachments at all?! or hunt with 100% repaired attachm,or get them off....
makes me wonder..
 

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Even though I have never quantitatively tested my attachments, I have always had the feeling weapons were indeed more effective with those rather than without. Nice work done here, +rep and let me know if you need any help with the tests.

BB
 

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Ah sry didnt see that, like i said im lazy :laugh:

Anyway the plot thickens why is this info so secret, i see no reason why it should be? only ppl gaining from this non-info/confusion are MA(again!!!). Can't see how telling ppl how lasers work would give anybody a money making advantage, would only save ppl money, hmmm..
Actually it seems to me that this is exactly the way MA has always acted: else we would have the weapon eco in the info screen, the armor decay formula would be published on MA webpage, the quantitative effect of skills on HA or mindamage would be described in the avatar info page, ......... ;)
 

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Actually it seems to me that this is exactly the way MA has always acted: else we would have the weapon eco in the info screen, the armor decay formula would be published on MA webpage, the quantitative effect of skills on HA or mindamage would be described in the avatar info page, ......... ;)
Yeah, frankly i like that we are left to figure out these things ourselves: this is one situation where i don't think they need to reveal the mechanics.

Mathayus, it's trivial to answer your own question if you assume the skill modification to work as discussed in this thread. I gave some specific examples earlier. All is subject to Recoda's original results being accurate, of course.
 

jcfuller

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Maybe the seemingly different results come from the fact that it is not hitability that is modified at all but the SIZE of the hit box. I know I sense better hits with my marber at great distances with scopes and lasers but do notice none or little difference with a HG.
The descriptions do say improve aim which could mean a larger hitbox???

James
 
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Maybe the seemingly different results come from the fact that it is not hitability that is modified at all but the SIZE of the hit box. I know I sense better hits with my marber at great distances with scopes and lasers but do notice none or little difference with a HG.
The descriptions do say improve aim which could mean a larger hitbox???

James
Improve aim could mean improve skill gain rate or improve hit %, so it's ambiquous.
 

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i started to use weapon attachments soon a friend told me that what some1 mentioned before. for example,if the total of the attachs would be like 30% skill modification,and if i had lets say 1k in the skills involved in that modification i would have that 1k*30%,and with the theory that the better the skills,the better eco u get,it would fiut great...
And actually i use now mostly the atatchs cause the weapons looks cool with those that without'em..
 

Etopia

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There also a tehory that say the %mod count toward the skill gain.
I mean , if you got 3k skill , and use 30% skill mod , you will gaint skill like if you was at 3.9k skill.

And i am not sure the eco gain with the skill mod compensate the direct skill loss ...

But all that is tehorie :)
 

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But all that is tehorie :)

the perfect words :)
still its kinda hard to us figure out how a bunch of things works,since there are a lot of factors that can change the results and we don't notice them..
 

Etopia

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the perfect words :)
still its kinda hard to us figure out how a bunch of things works,since there are a lot of factors that can change the results and we don't notice them..
Well a good prog that save all data from global chan would do the trick.
Its not impossible to make , and i know som are around.
But , i dont think those that coded it will give for free.Gathering and using all data from what you do can increase a lot your eco while playing.

When i see the power to data in crafting , i tell you , data in hunting can bring an insane big diference.
 

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I recommend someone who hasn't already used their question ask the balancing manager in the latest Q&A, just in case he decides to give a dispensation in his divine mercy.
By the time I'd noticed the Q&A all the balancing related issues I wanted to ask about had already been asked, so I still have my question! I considered asking about this but wasn't really sure it was a balancing issue.

I've just added the question now, with a little bit at the end about the possible impact on the market prices for such attachments being affected by the lack of understanding of what they do - in order to try and make it a balancing issue :D
 

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I've decided to upload the application I made here at EF. It's a rather simple application, this is what it looks like.



Setup your weapon so that it fires on the "1" key. The program will then register all of the shoots as long as you only use the "1" key, and not the mouse, to fire. Any errors can be removed by pressing the "Shift"-key or the "-"-key. Those keys reduces the shoots/misses from the calculations. The "*" key will reset the whole calculation. The application will not reset the calculations if it's been restarted, the previous stats will then automatically be loaded. This could be good at long runs in case it crashes or such.

It would be great if someone could head out on a 10,000 shoot run. As the smallest errors could influence the result on a 1,000 shoot run.

Here's the link, please report the results in this thread. :)
http://eurdatabase-1.at.vwdhosting.net/missrate.zip

Ohh... and. Press CTRL + P to Pause the application in case you need to type something using Shift, 1 or any other key ingame or on the forums.
 
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Vedder

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To me, the absolutely most important thing in this thread is to get an answer to this question:
Do (repaired) scopes/lasers improve your economy?
...
Doer's calculation on the previous page suggests that yes is the answer to that.
...
Oops... Yes, you're right.

But what I *meant* was "Does (repaired) scopes/lasers really improve your chance to hit?" :duh:
(Yes yes... The result so far seems to support this, I'd just like more test data before we conclude a lot of things, which is what my quoted post was about, except for the wrong words in the bold quote.)
 

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Oops... Yes, you're right.

But what I *meant* was "Does (repaired) scopes/lasers really improve your chance to hit?" :duh:
(Yes yes... The result so far seems to support this, I'd just like more test data before we conclude a lot of things)
I think we may need to do a bit more testing before we can be 100% sure. But it seems like (repaired) scopes and lasers improves your chance to hit, while scopes and lasers under 50% in condition decreases your chance to hit.
 

Vedder

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I think we may need to do a bit more testing before we can be 100% sure. But it seems like (repaired) scopes and lasers improves your chance to hit, while scopes and lasers under 50% in condition decreases your chance to hit.
Yes, agree :)
 

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Testing methods

I have done the first 1000 shot test and found it extraordinarily difficult to avoid misses that feel are due to "external causes". A few things i noticed while being as careful and deliberate as possible:
-stay on level ground
-close all apps possible. (I was getting frequent disk thrashing that kept causing small pauses in the game. It turned out the bloated Flash stuff on the Entropia Universe webpage i had open was the culprit. :rolleyes:)
and of course,
-only shoot at a mob when it's stopped and right in front of you

Weapon type and attachments:

maxed SIB laser carbine (HA 10.0)
_______________
1008 shots
91 misses
9.0% missrate

578 shots
47 misses
8.1% missrate

--broken (L) weapon, starting with new one--

1015 shots
99 misses
9.7% missrate

1004 shots
94 misses
9.3% missrate

maxed SIB laser carbine+SE600+SE600+2500RS (<1/3 full tt)
_______________
1041 shots
97 misses
9.3% missrate

1025 shots
99 misses
9.6% missrate

Last edit for Sunday. I'm finding the shift hotkey really cramps my play because i dare not use soc chat for fear of hitting an extra shift. I guess the ideal key for that would be the ` because it's almost never used and it's right next to 1 anyway. I'm finally getting used to the rather different controls using the utility requires, but it still makes me uptight trying to avoid missing. Just what i need: stress in my leisure activities. lol

I think the only really controlled way to do this test is with a more sophisticated utility that automatically counts shots by change of some adjustable amount of ammo, and counts misses by the absense of a dmg message in chat. That would resolve the lagged shots issue and also multiple presses of the key for eg arming the weapon. Of course, that would be a lot more work to write!

Preliminary conclusion: there's no way in hell i can find significant differences with the lag on my US connection.

Testing unmaxed weapon 20070226

Test mob: small ambulimax VU 8.9

conventional laser carbine, no mod attachments
_______________
1041 shots
152 misses
14.6% missrate

conventional laser carbine +SE600+2500RS (~1/4 full tt)
_______________
1171 shots
159 misses
13.5% missrate

conventional laser carbine +SE600+SE600+2500RS (<1/3 full tt)
_______________
888 shots
116 misses
13% missrate


Comments: i'm still seeing a lot of variation during a test, and several misses in a row or on one mob. I was much less careful in this test than the previous: i tagged the ambu without counting the shot, and once it was headed toward me i started counting.



I tried changing the conventionally accepted hit % range (80-92) to 80-91 but the unmaxed values fit much closer if i kept the old range.

Results seem favorable for attachments raising the effective hit ability on unmaxed weapons, but i'm not fully convinced. Call it 50:50. ;) I don't see any way to include the tt of the attachments and get sensible results though. I'd guess the attachments contribute full mod % until broken completely. Having not broken an attachment i don't know if you can even put it on the weapon when broken, anyway.

It seems pretty clear they don't do anything significant on maxed SIB weapons. I guess my earlier observation was a coincidence after all. Eerie.


_________________________

I have a laptop without numeric keypad -- that's a problem for using the two keys on the numeric pad. I can get around it with Fn keys but if you could you make the \ key reset and [ key decrement misses it would be really nice. :)
 
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Recoda

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I have done the first 1000 shot test and found it extraordinarily difficult to avoid misses that feel are due to "external causes". A few things i noticed while being as careful and deliberate as possible:
-stay on level ground
-close all apps possible. (I was getting frequent disk thrashing that kept causing small pauses in the game. It turned out the bloated Flash stuff on the Entropia Universe webpage i had open was the culprit. :rolleyes:)
and of course,
-only shoot at a mob when it's stopped and right in front of you

Weapon and attachments:

breer m2a + a102 (HA 10.0)
_______________
1008 shots
91 misses
9.0% missrate


Apparently there are differences in key mapping because i can neither decrement the miss count nor reset the count.
That's odd. But you can increase the counter with 1/Shift?
I could setup a different combination or place some buttons in the application if you feel like you need them?
 

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i always used my 2xSE900 and 3500RS scope in full condition (38% total)

but thats just because it looks cool =)

great if they really helps =)
 

Recoda

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i always used my 2xSE900 and 3500RS scope in full condition (38% total)

but thats just because it looks cool =)

great if they really helps =)
Hehe, yeah. Sure is. =)

Apparently there are differences in key mapping because i can neither decrement the miss count nor reset the count. I went through every key on my keyboard. :p Edit: I have a laptop without numeric keypad -- that's the problem, of course. I can get around it with Fn keys but if you could you make the \ key reset and [ key decrement misses it would be really nice. :)
I just uploaded an updated version of the application. Here's a screenshot.

http://eurdatabase-1.at.vwdhosting.net/missr.zip

Edit:
Yet a new version was uploaded.
1 = Increase Shoots
Shift = Increase Misses
ALT/CTRL + 7 = Reduce Shoots
ALT/CTRL + 8 = Reduce Misses
ALT/CTRL + + = Reset
 
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My entire time playing EU I have had 2 abrer lasers and a Bjornier scope attached to just about every weapon I've fired. Probably 99.5% of my shots have been with this setup.

I'm dissapointed to hear that the lasers and scopes need to be above 50% condition as I have ALWAYS had them with as little repair as possible :(

Would have been nice if MA did a "Oh.. BTW..." Perhaps putting a line in the laser stats mentioning that I will miss more if its not repaired. I can't even think about how many peds that has cost me... all the while I thought that they were helping me.

I also keep all my equipment pretty low TT (except armour that has always been full). What about weapons now? Do they perform less when TT is low.. FAPS?
 
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