The efficiency of scopes/lasers

[dolera]

My point is just easy:

Better laser sights/scopes with more skillmod % are eighter high in decay or high in upmark. So if you want more skillgain you have to pay more.
Not that paying more gives you more gain, but more gain cost more.

Is that so hard to understand? maybe I need to draw a picture so even aliens could understand it

problem is that your point can be read two-fold.
first:
1a high skillmod implies high decay
1b high skillmod implies high markup

second:
2a high decay implies high skillmod
2b and high markup implies high skillmod

1a is most likely true, as MA definitely wont give a higher skillmod for lower costs. Because of this obvious nature, it doesnt add anything to the discussion
1b is most likely true as well, because ppl tend to pay more for better stuff - and the better stuff usually is rare, expensive and hard to make. But again, it doesnt add anything to the discussion, as markup doesnt say a word about the quality of an item, it only learns us something about the market.

Because of the obvious or irrelavant nature of 1a/b, i interpret(ed) your statement as 2a/b. But ...

2a I doubt there is an equivalence relation between decay on scopes/sights and skillmod. There surely might be (and likely is) a correlation, but that does not warrant 2a
2b is only partially true. Take for example the Seizzt Ranger Scope 1900RS
It has a skillmod of only 4%, but a markup over 90 ped. a scope with twice the skillmod sells for only +20. Reason for this is that the 1900RS has a unique look. Still my remark on 1a (about markup not being related to the qualities of an item) stands.

maybe now you understand why aliens dont get the point at first sight eh?

 

[Doer]

One thing i think you ought to do, RazorFire, is get NRF or a similar program (that one is discussed in the mining forum) and use it to get decimal accuracy on skill and professional standing increases along with counting the checks as you already are. If you're trying to nail down something as "dynamic" as skillgains with different attachments you'll need all the detail you can get each time to hope to discern any pattern over time.

I was thinking the same way about this project as you, but then i realized that it is possible that this is simply an unfinished area, much like stamina or taming. Anyway, on the off chance we do conclusively figure out the skillmod thing, MA will have more incentive to finish something else and provide a new mystery for people to spend money trying to figure out.

 

[Midnght]

Guess i'm just a simpleton when it comes to these items.

They simply increase my skill to use an item. they don't display this but that's how i've always seen them.

So if i have 2000 points in whatever it effects and it gives 10% it makes me 2200

Which in the end should net me more skill gains due to more kills hits whatever.

Basically Occums Razor theory
This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

Till any concrete evidence is shown i'll stick with the simple solution belief. }:>)

 

[Doer]

Guess i'm just a simpleton when it comes to these items.

They simply increase my skill to use an item. they don't display this but that's how i've always seen them.

So if i have 2000 points in whatever it effects and it gives 10% it makes me 2200

Which in the end should net me more skill gains due to more kills hits whatever.

Basically Occums Razor theory
This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

Till any concrete evidence is shown i'll stick with the simple solution belief. }:>)

I disagree that that is the simplest solution. The simplest IMO is that MA simply hasn't made the skill mod % do anything. The problem with your theory and using Occam's Razor is that there's no consistent data to support it, in spite of multiple tests. Given that, my "simplest solution" is indeed the simplest.

Incidentally, the net effect of your theory would be in general less skill gains, not more: Skills go more slowly as they get higher.

 

[dolera]

Till any concrete evidence is shown i'll stick with the simple solution belief. }:>)

By far the easiest theory is that it has no effect whatsoever... And knowing MA, it might be true as well

*eagerly awaiting more results*

edit:

I disagree that that is the simplest solution. The simplest IMO is that MA simply hasn't made the skill mod % do anything.

he was a bit faster! Great minds think alike - and so do stupid minds, i think

 

[Midnght]

I disagree that that is the simplest solution. The simplest IMO is that MA simply hasn't made the skill mod % do anything. The problem with your theory and using Occam's Razor is that there's no consistent data to support it, in spite of multiple tests. Given that, my "simplest solution" is indeed the simplest.

Incidentally, the net effect of your theory would be in general less skill gains, not more: Skills go more slowly as they get higher.

Too true that is ultimately the simplest. }:>)

I stand corrected hehehe

As for slowness. the juries still out for me on this. I've got some of my own theories on that and i'll see them fail or not when ig et high enough to see things slow down. }:>)

 

[RazorFire]

Doer, I've been using NRF hence the 0.02 gains in Sniper hit etc, but since the last but one update it hasnt been able to capture the progress bar of the skills, only the current skill value

 

[Doer]

Doer, I've been using NRF hence the 0.02 gains in Sniper hit etc, but since the last but one update it hasnt been able to capture the progress bar of the skills, only the current skill value

You need to set the proper color for the progress bar in the setup options of the program. I ran into the same problem and that fixed it! Borr mentioned it in the thread about it.

 

[RazorFire]

Thanks, that worked a treat now have the exact percentiles for when my next run commences.

In the meantime I did another test run. 1000 Shots at Neas, including an a106 amp and zoomed in for every shot.

HA: 4.1
Location: Nea's Place
Mob: Ambulimax Young to Provider
Weapon: IMK2 full TT, Abrer Sight full TT(on scope), Gargul Sight full TT(on IMK2), Grender Scope full TT, A106 amp. Skillmod: 43.5%. All shots using scope zoom.
Armour: Shadow +5B, ADJ Fap

Shots Fired: 1000
Misses: 160
Hit %: 84.0
Mobs Killed: 92

Professional Standing Laser Sniper(Hit) Gains:
Starting: (41.12)
Gain: 0.02

More later.

Looks like Nea's place is a good place to hunt if you want to miss less shots due to lag this inspite of the numbers of sweaters in the LA. I think some of this is due to portions of the LA being open ground. Just a shame that I've never had much luck with Ambu or I'd hunt there a lot more often.

Might try Argo's N of Twin next using one of the setups. Skillgains to come later.

 

[Brickwit]

Any updates?

So... whatever happened with this thread and it's experiments? Was it moved to a new thread or did it just die out?

RazorFire, did you do more testing? Has anything been determined conclusively? Is there ANY new information on this issue?

 

[RazorFire]

Nothing new recently as I noticed significantly increased lag the last couple of weeks of the old VU which was causing me to miss in excess of 20% of all shots from all weapons, including maxed sib weapons such as opalo, breer M2a, Emik s50, etc.

Additionally, there is a problem with my grender scope since the VU..Its 30x maginification is down to 2x. Once this is fixed I will start again, with my updated HA as a start point (HA now up to 4.7 so theoretically I should miss less in all cases.)

I now have 2 garguls so this should assist with the collection of data.

My plan is to go to TI, do 1000 shots at Maxed maturity corns with imk and no attachments, then 1000 with imk and gargul, then 1000 with IMK and 2 garguls and grender. I will then summarise all relevant skills gained and miss percentages in each scenario.

Hopefully I will start the tests in the next 7 days.

 

[Brickwit]

Sounds great, RazorFire, can't wait for:

a) The scope issue to be resolved - everyone is down to 2X on all scopes it seems
b) The results of your tests.

I have an Alekz scope and an Abrer laser on my unlimited handgun, both at about 50%, which is all I can afford to have tied up in repairs. I really want to find out if I'm just wasting my PED or not. My handgun skill is nearly 3k, which only puts me at about 2.2 HA on the unlimited guns.

 

[Rapido]

Great work...

This is avesame news, I have been thinking about something like this but never tested it, I looking forward to read more about it

Rapido

 

[RazorFire]

Ok, I went and did some Big Corn hunting north of TI castle just to see how it went.

First run i went wth 1000 shots, IMK2 with no attachments. I went back, repaired, added a full tt Grender scope and 2 full tt Gargul laser sights and went straight back for another 1000 shots.

Run 1: (no attachments)

Shots: 1000
Misses: 177
Hit %: 82.3%

Run 2: (set of 3 full tt attachments giving 52.5% skillmod)

(all shots using scope zoomed to an appropriate degree of magnification)

Shots: 1000
Misses: 146
Hit%: 85.4%

My Basic HA is 4.7/10

I will have to do more shooting obviously as the first run was absolutely horrible for misses. 2 different Corns i missed 7/18 shots. The second run with the attachments went a lot better.

Overall loot return was 83.2% across the 2 hunts.

 

[Brickwit]

I actually had to sell my scope and laser just for ammo money, but that went all-too-quickly, so I'm back to sweating.

Still, I don't believe that this information is any less relevant or desired, so if anybody has any more data/input/testing results showing what these attachments do and whether or not TT value has any effect, please share!

 

[Svarog]

Well.. after 2 months of using almost-dead set of 2 abrers and 1 cinclair, I at last repaired them to the full (300ped! ). Unfortunately, after 3 days of testing I didn't notice any difference, neither better hitrate nor better skillgain

 

[RazorFire]

Did you fire every shot while using the scope, even if zoomed at 1.0 magnification. That may make a difference to your results. I'm going to test this more when I get time but have many commitments both within and outside EU at the moment so dont always get the time to do this sort of testing. Rest assured I will when I can

 

[Svarog]

I created a poll about this subject, trying to cover all current theories and believes.

 

[forgo]

Not sure if it helps, but I recently chipped out all skills, had opened wounding ect.

I have restarted the skill grind, and am noticing a defference.

One thing I noticed recently though is while teaming with a person with higher skills and similar rifle, I am doing pretty equal on average.

the differences are the other person has:
an as 147 ME no attachments,
I have:
an as 147 with grender scope and framur lasers

The only conclusion I can come to is the difference of attachments, while the other rifle does a little more damage than mine, the attachments make up the difference in my rifle to come to about equal.

My skills as well are climbing alot better than I expected....almost at 30 blp sniper with a month from 0 skills again.

Just something I noticed anyhow that may be of use in your quest....sry for the lack of concrete evidence, the results are pretty convincing 1st hand to me though.

 

[Rival]

Lets look at the facts.

#1. Scopes let you zoom, so they actually do SOMETHING.

#2. Lasers paint a dot, so they actually do SOMETHING.

#3. They decay when used.

#4. The contribute to something called "Skill Modification" on the weapon.

#5. Skill modifications are stackable.

#6. Craftable weapon attachments become more expensive to craft as BP levels increase.

#7. Craftable weapon attachments require more skill to craft as BP levels increase.

#8. Craftable weapon attachments have a higher TT value as BP levels increase.

#9. Craftable weapon attachments provide higher skill modifications as BP levels increase.

#10. Craftable weapon attachments have a higher decay as BP levels increase.

#11. Prior to last year the entire attachment book contained nothing but weapon attachment BP's.

#12. Crafting weapon attachments when compared to other crafting areas is the most expensive, with the exception now of mining amps.


Without actually going out and doing any tests, these facts would lead to the following conclusions:

#1 Using weapons attachments will yield a significant benefit.

#2 Assuming they have no skill-based component, a higher level attachment will provide increased benefits. (by skill-based component I mean the full benefits of using an item require a minimum skill-set)

#3 MA has devoted a significant amount of programmer hours to develop the weapons attachment system and to implement it.

What are the possibilities?

#1 Weapon attatchments under the correct conditions can increase your hit rate.

#2 Weapon attachments under the correct conditions can increase your skill-gains

#3 Weapon attachments under the correct conditions can increase your over-all loot.

#4 Weapon attachments under the correct conditions can increase likelyhood of lootable items. (armor, weapons, et al.)

#5 Weapon attachments under the correct conditions can increase the rarity of items looted. (Nemesis instead of Gnome)

#6 Weapon attachments under the wrong conditions can reverse any of the results of #1 thru #5

#7 Weapon attachments do none of the above, but may effect something else entirely.

#8 Weapon attachments provide zoom and red dots but nothing else.


Personally, I believe the benefits of weapon attachments may never truly be quantified unless MA tells us. But I am convinced that there are serious benefits. A Noob packing a Gargul on an Opalo may not have the skills to make the Gargul do it's thing, and end up wasting money, no different than putting an OA-108 on an OF-101 with zero mining skills. You will just bleed PED's. If the weapon attachments effect items in loot, literally hundreds of thousands of runs would have to be made to prove it, in literally hundreds of configurations and skill levels and even larger permeutations considering matching creatures to skill levels. Our apparent inability to identify the specific effect leads me to believe that either it has an effect on loot, configuration is matched closely to skill level and weapon, or there is no effect implemented at this time. Considering the man-hours spent creating and implementing the system, I doubt it is inactive.

 

[Agar]

I drop in with two questions:

- is there any indication for skill related skill modification?

- is there a "proof" skill modification is useless on maxed sib weapons?

 

[Doer]

I drop in with two questions:

- is there any indication for skill related skill modification?

- is there a "proof" skill modification is useless on maxed sib weapons?

You can comb through the posts and find the tests people did. The only real proof so far is that lag, pseudorandom aka dynamic numbers, and player error make it impossible to prove that, or indeed, the role of scopes and lasers in general.

 

[Witte]

Although I am not sure you factor out misses 100% yet, but when you use the autoaim option, your gun will only fire when the mob is in range and aimed in the middle of the mob.

I tried it on tsktsk, and it seem you never miss, no matter where the critter is flying.

 

[andyzammy]

Although I am not sure you factor out misses 100% yet, but when you use the autoaim option, your gun will only fire when the mob is in range and aimed in the middle of the mob.

I tried it on tsktsk, and it seem you never miss, no matter where the critter is flying.

are you saying you've never missed when using autofire?

 

[Rival]

They really modified the autoaim feature a few VU's back. It is far superior to aiming now. I have never looked back, and now use autoaim only. It makes playing so much sweeter now, and far less annoying. My misrate all but evaporated, all that is left is my HA.

 

[Jimmy B]

are you saying you've never missed when using autofire?

No, but for a 'dancing' mob autofire seems to hit even though sometimes when you shoot you don't appear to be aiming at the target. Its the same with tezlas.

 

[Coop_]

Although I am not sure you factor out misses 100% yet, but when you use the autoaim option, your gun will only fire when the mob is in range and aimed in the middle of the mob.

I tried it on tsktsk, and it seem you never miss, no matter where the critter is flying.

Shhhhhhhhh!

We need all those manual aimers to fill up the tsktsk lootpool! I wonder the total value of all the ammo blasted into the air on tsktsk flying too high to be hit with a carbine. I know after one hunt several teammates complained of their losses while I scored a little profit by using autoaim on them.

 

[Brickwit]

I drop in with two questions:

- is there any indication for skill related skill modification?

- is there a "proof" skill modification is useless on maxed sib weapons?

Unknown and none yet.

And that's the big problem with the whole laser/scope situation: there are so may possible combinations and SO many ways of losing consistency that it seems impossible to tell (short of an MA tell-all) without a fully-backed, large-scale research project. If only we could find a government agency to do that research for us too...

Add to this the fact that MA is in the business of making money, just like every other business out there (with a few exceptions, of course), and it is not difficult to think that they merely created the "skill modification" system for the overall purpose of making more money off of decay. Let's leave the argument over whether or not thier statement of only making money from decay is entirely true to another thread. Those threads aren't hard to find, after all.

As a result, as stated on the previous page by another poster, it is nearly impossible to know what the true effects of lasers and scopes are without MA coming right out and saying it. I, for one, hope the day they do so comes sooner rather than later, but I'm not putting any PED on it.

 

[Brother Rick]

Interesting, I think we may need to do at least a 10,000 shoots run in order to find out the real truth though. Just a couple of missed shoots due to lag or synch-issues would make a huge difference on the result on a 1,000 shoots run. So it'd be safer to do a 10,000 one, I haven't had the time to try it yet though.

Haven't read further than this post yet, but gotta go back studying. I think you shouldn't do a 10k shot run but 10 times a 1k run. That way the difference in tt at the beginning and end of run is less, but you still fire 10k shots.

This might have been said in this thread between the quoted post (#66) and my post, but I just ain't got time to check it and wanted to make this point

 

[Nutarix]

Did anyone do like a sanity check ?, and check the damage distribution, w/o scopes/lasers. It should'nt do any difference to the damage distribution, but you never know what bugs are still uncovered.