This is Getting Ridiculous

Well maybe they are trying at least? :)

About (L) stuff, this is how I see it:
If all the stuff was UL, there would need to be more and more players to keep crafters busy, right? Else there could only be so many guns/armorparts/etc before the market was full.

With (L) stuff, people need new weapons/armorparts/etc every now and then, so the crafters need to craft new ones, therefore stimulating the entire economy (since they have to buy hunting/mining loots to get materials to craft with)

About L vs UL: All society economy realities must lean towards the use of L-items (or at least have some kind of material-need in case of repairs of UL)
This has been discussed many a time in this forum since the beginning of the L-age 3 years back.
How did the crafters ever keep so busy before L weapons then?
If no L exist, first the crafters then the miners, will find themselves out of work eventually. And prices of all craftable UL items will move towards tt. This is a fact.
To answer your question short: Before L, crafters was skilling on low level UL items to be able to craft the higher level. Problems occured when the amount of new players stagnated and item markups dropped. It just never got to this point due to the installation of L. Luckily for MA and the players.

L is the only way foreward in any real economy.
(Just imagine what would happen if we all could get our old car completely fixed in a second, with a simple click in a machine.)



To comment on your OP:
I agree that MA is in trouble with the current pooling system.
The return of average loot is too low = the cost of average playing is too high.
The tecnical difficulties running the game are pretty high + Serious lack of gameplay/storyline.

All = The playerbase is minimized and we will face a possible meltdown.

Personally Ive done the same as most my ingame friends: stopped all depos.

It must hurt MA at a crusial point.

Still we dont cash out... yet. Its much too exciting to see if our "investments" will come thrue or not.

About the pending experiments on 15$/month. As well as the post from DA' about wrong hunting habbits: I just dont see it happening. Return from loot is down and decay of inventory overall is shrinking my (and my friend's) tt-value for every active hour we play. It doesnt matter how we hunt - only how much we choose to loose (eg. hunt big or small game.)

We will see what the future of EU bring. I sure hope to be able to return and play a bit next year too.
 
dear 711
can you put this thread in the new section, first EF page???

thx in advance
 
I have given up on them realising but as soon as a competitor starts a similar business model, MA will run into problems..

They have cleverly managed to create (and own a share of) their own competition with the eventual coming of the new planets. Thus it won't really matter (financially) to MA if FPC is successful or not.
 
Not everyone has 5k+ peds in game as "buffer" (for oils, and as buffer for low loot periods). Also if you're going for those 150%+ items rather than oils you need to have enough PEDs to sustain each single hunt until you global/hof, since the markup items usually are in global size (well a 15 ped Cleaver(L) is rather useless i'd admit that).
Never said anything about 5k ped. You could do it with 1000 ped maybe even 500.


PS: the MM you can still get, I bought mine for 245k. Didn't deposit a dime, played in events, played smart. etc.
As for not having fun with the certain mobs, they changed the system, to either balance it or adjust cp's system.
You have to adjust your play style with changes to the universe, adapt :D.

Yes the "Casino" system as you call it is why half of player are here as it is. Half of EU loves going for that big one, other half doesn't, like I said earlier, can't make everyone happy. I personally wouldn't call it a Casino if you can be smart enough to make money the entire time.

your gain is someone elses loss, hence u know the answer

Mindark has to make profit somehow, there will always be someone else who takes the loss. Happens in IRL alot as well.
 
For hunting (my favorite pastime):
- Way to many mountains making movement very difficult especially since TP chips do not work yet. More plains with longer less steeper hills are way more fun to move around. This holds also for mining.
- A lot of the fantastic spawns on the old planet have disapeared.
Cheers
Siam

This sums up the concerns I have I have at the moment too.
 
I appreciate the intent of this thread and the attempt to keep it constructive. But....

These are your views not that of ALL of the community. I agree with some points and disagree with others, as do a large chunk of those who have replied. Keep it as your opinion don't pretend it mine.
Cut the sensationalism, I hate it on the news, I hate it here. SGA was announced long before VU 10 came out. You stated later you meant the timing. In my view they delayed it so I don't see it as reactive.
Leave out the assumptions. There is no need for them. Your views were enough, assumptions just devalue them.
 
I SOO agree with the OP. I wish MA would hire someone like him as a "spokesperson" . I kinda been running out of "fuel" latly, mostly cause the communitys attempts to start up an open comunication with MA / FPC fails as usual. I feel like banging my head to a wall. WHEN if ever will MA / FPC realize that communication with their paying customers are crusial for their survival. Right there is from my point of wiew the biggest error with them. I dont expect ANYTHING at all to change in their behaviour toward us, they just shown me way to many times their REAL faces.
Getting more and more ashamed to be Swedish.
 
...

Edit: Depending on your play style, (if its not overly wasteful) you can profit at any level. I truly believe that.
It's all the matter of finding what works for you, targeting the right mob, and saving all those pecs.
The average person probably TT's 1000-5000 ped worth of % stuff in a year.
10000+ if you hunt more than 3-4 hours a day. When I was on my hunting grind, I was making back 500 ped / week in oil %'s. from stuff that people normally TT. That's 24000 ped a year! all because I got enough spare peds to keep oils until I could sell em.
Like I said above, every ped counts, play smart!

...
I think this is a problem with EU/PC, efficient ways to trade stuff easily to
get stuff sold so we can get the MU easier.
MA said we have auctionfees to reduce the of amount of low-value stuff
that hardly ever sales.
What alternative did they give us?
They should have done a system where everyone has X amount of slots
(let's say 3, as an example only) in auction where we can trade these
stuff with very low tt-value and very low MU, without fees. If the problem
were too much crap in auction, this will still be under controll. If the reason
were to get more PEDs to flow within system, how honest were their
excuse then?
Imo, EU/PC need tools that makes micro-sales WAY faster and WAY more
efficient.
 
They have cleverly managed to create (and own a share of) their own competition with the eventual coming of the new planets. Thus it won't really matter (financially) to MA if FPC is successful or not.

Luckily, at that point, they will be more like LA owners, collecting the 4% tax, rather than the 30%(20%, 50%, 70%, whatever%) they collect now.
 
:D :yay::yay::yay:

No ones perfect..

tbh I have not seen a change in the loot since 6.0 / lack of items / megahofs. Some days are good, some are bad. I really think if your having to deposit 50$ a day or 50$ a week even your doing something wrong.

I could take a korss 400 out, as I have done in the past experiment on different skill types. pre-10 and 1-2 hunts post vu 10, average level hunter - 133 hp - borrowing my brothers character, and figuring out what does best for that set up I can break even 90% of the time, If I were to sell the skills in the future it'd take over that 10%.

I think strategy and playing smart are still in the game.

thats my opinion on loot.

About the VU 10, yes it has been in developement for 2-3 years, but thats what most games require to make, they remade half the game, IE: the graphical part of the game which requires a ton of work. Most games develop for 2 years then are put in alpha/beta stage for another year, You cannot really compare a alpha/beta tested "polished" game to EU, so far we are in "the fixing stage, or beta if you wanna call it" For about 1 month, give it some time.

Unofficial beta as mindark probably can't really do an actual massive 5000+ people test. (how would you deal with peds on the beta compared to actual working universe?) And there's only so many bugs you can find with a company 30-50 people.

im shure something changed long time ago i knew they implement no loots on all mobs,alot where not happy with that and they changed it back to basic.

some time later when most forgot they tryed this already they came with no loots again but only on the smaller and midlvl mobs so its been changed several times in the past and they will change it again but hope next change will be positive.

what i also have seen this vu and vu's before is that alot people that coming back from being inactive are lucky with the big hoffs.

ok i lost 5-6k ped this vu now looted angel thighs is nice but im shure old times i would played much more time with those 5k and would have looted more good stuff.

like i hunted in my goblin and vat 120 i looted cron arms my best item i looted back than with my nuub skills but also never could have such bad returns like these days now.

i know old times even 4-5k was ath and was rare.

also got 16k hoff oculus with my frean d + dante and nuub skills after some months camping was also rare that time,maby once a week hoff like that dropped but was also the time more hoffs like that started to drop.

i think the different is normol loots are lower these days but more globals and big hoffs someone need to lose money for those big hoffs, but that also means when ya have bad timing luck and you do 5 runs with out globals you have much more lose than old days were i only had small lose without globals.

i did not started play pe to make money i dont care to lose some money if go party everyweek i lose money to but the lose you can have now on1 day are crazy sometimes i can tell you ,i started to play because i wanted to skill up so i could try to loot better items and get myself up in hunting and pvp gameplay.
but now after all those years seems i better bought items i wanted old times ;)

this is not whining but what i have notice all those years the hoffs globals items making this game sensational thats why i like it but i think they lost the track a bit.

only i can do is hoping MA is getting PE/EU on the right track again with next updates.
 
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Luckily, at that point, they will be more like LA owners, collecting the 4% tax, rather than the 30%(20%, 50%, 70%, whatever%) they collect now.

MindArk gets 50% of the revenue generated by planet partners, but in return the planet partners do not have to pay server costs, CE2 licence, etc :silly2:

EDIT: Link to their business model
 
Well, something tells me that for such a fee, someone will eventually figure out they can do it themselves rather than hire MA.
 
Well, something tells me that for such a fee, someone will eventually figure out they can do it themselves rather than hire MA.

Buying CryEngine license TT+1
 
:yay:


looks like everyones patience and consternation is goin to get some more updates in the game

looking forward to playing good news is good news ....


:wtg:
 
I came to some of these conclusions quite a while ago, but tried to make my way through. At this point, I do not play anymore, but have not yet sold out. If I want to make peds last, I now have to work for it; this is the exact opposite of why I sit at my computer when I get home. It just isn't fun anymore, and I can't believe I was ever into it as heavily as I once was. Things look much different now that I'm outside looking in.
 
OK, let's look at some specific things.

VU9.4 (some say 9.0) Mindark changes the balance managing system so smart playing becomes irrelevant, and only the lucky lottery winners are allowed to profit.

Incorrect. MA has "adjusted" loot balance quite often, in terms of what drops from which mob, etc. (I.E. argo used to drop muscle oil, but that was quickly changed.) But I think once you analyze it, the loot distribution has more to do with player actions than MA's. I'll explain later. However suffice it to say that smart playing is still profitable.

Some of the higher end players start cashing out.

Meaning others are buying. ;) (Again, explained later.)

VU10.0.0 Mindark/FPC decide to release this very beautiful new gfx engine on us without properly testing it.

No, they tested it. They simply did a poor job of it. As I said in my VU10 comment thread, I was also unhappy w/ the amount of problems in the initial release, (so we are in agreement there) but I knew they would be bringing in many patches. So far they have been.

The update includes only half of the gameplay functionality,

Which they told us about before implementing it. It's not like they sprung it on us. We didn't install VU10 and go "WTF? Where is MF or team hunting or our apts.?" If you understood how interwoven this economy is, you'd understand that was a warning.

and it seems that the balance manager has again been tweaked.

Tweaked mostly by us, the players, and by MA/FPC but only in that everything isn't implemented atm. Let me explain this interwoven economy as it relates to VU10 so far.

* No Mindforce
Result = Market for MF chips, nexus, sweat, mind essence, Etc. is down. Also reduced travel speed (no tp jumps) = reduced activity.

* No Team hunting
Result = Less high maturity mobs being hunted, reducing the items they drop, making MU on them higher

* Higher computer requirements
Result = Many players (more than you think) being pushed out of game until they can afford better computers, which also reduces the amount they can deposit.

* No apts
Result = Little if any haircutting/body sculpting, thus reducing prices on hairspray, etc.

* No beacons
Result = spaceships & beacon runs were a huge source of robot res, used for making certain faps and other items. This huge reduction in res has forced the crafting cost of those items to increase ~4-5% in res cost, although they are selling for roughly the same cost, thus crafters are profiting (and able to spend) less. (Although robot res sellers are profiting more, so that evens out.)

* No pets
Result = fruit, whip, sweetstuff, nutrio bars, etc. all reduced in price.

* Gray furniture
Result = Although clothing is the major focus for painting/textures, furniture and other (C) items did help increase demand for paints/textures. Now those industries are also lagging.

No face masks, plus many other things I can site. All of these have affected major (if underappreciated) sections of this economy. Many folks who have relied on those industries have stopped playing atm, so we lose their activity/decay as well. However, note these are all simply missing pieces that will come back eventually. As they do, those economies will rev back up.

In response to the sudden reveral of cashflow, Mindark releases the Second Golden Age, promising improved and elite weapons to be made available to the committed veterans, and casual players alike.

The casual players get Pixie, the committed veterans who already have the elite weapons and armor receive their SGA counterparts.

Absolute rubbish. DOA loudmouth, imp fap, mod fap, and many more "uber" items dropped to quite "casual players" (meaning they did not previously posses those types of items.)

Yes, many items have been looted by uber players. What's the problem?

More players quit in disgust over the SGA farce.

Folks have quit (and come back) after every major VU so far. You weren't here for the footguard/armor decay debacle or the amp nerf, or the skill nerf. Trust me when I say many folks left then too, but somehow those worked out in the end.

Qetesh's land areas are ruined,

The mountains are way over used, I agree. I suspect they were intended to "herd us" in our journeys as we were forced to gather all our TPs, LAs, and landmarkers again. But yes, they went overboard.

Jolana's account is locked and threatened with deletion over a nonexistent scam.

While that situation occurred due to a technical error by MA which allowed certain folks back into this Universe, account locks were required while tracking the movement of the items in question. Jolana was hardly the only one. Those that are truly innocent get their account released eventually.

David from FPC's response - Your perogative.

Poor choice of words aside, MA/FPC's official attitude has always been that we (the players) are free to come and go, buy in and sell out, as we wish. Some folks are in a holding pattern, and others are doing "business as usual". FPC has offered many events over the years to "increase sales" so to speak. SGA was always planned as another and we all knew that. That the economy was so poor before hand made no difference. (Though I personally would have preferred for them to wait 2-3 months before doing it, but it was their call.)

Yes, MA/FPC's history of lacking communication is legendary, but the players insistence on over analyzing their comments is also historic. However, it is true that those two facts are interrelated.

Reread David's quote again, then carefully read his signature.

The playerbase is shrinking at an ever increasing rate.

For the reasons I mentioned above. Which, ironically just makes loot even worse.

Consider the loot pool as a more of a response to the players activities, not MAs. For example, had Buzz not camped those big longu, and spent so much on them, would that big hof had dropped? Would Starman's 100k beanie click have waited for someone else?

It wasn't coincidence that the dasp ATHs came so soon after so much was pumped into them via WoF. The same thing happened to the globsters.

I mention uber hofs/ATHs, but consider this also relates to overall market activity. Someone skills heavy on springs, thus keeping the eye oil market in the 102% range, not 100.5%

So with that in mind, consider that the week FPC was down for VU10 install, there was zero activity for the system to pull from. Also remember that due to many computer problems and such mentioned above that much of the player base wasn't logging in, nor playing as much.

If loot out is based directly on decay spent, and activity is greatly reduced, then what is the expected outcome of the loot? Which makes folks wait, which reduces activity, which lowers loot, which makes folks wait...

It's not MA, it's us.

Furthermore, by disabling skill chips, Mindark has created a false bottom that will be realized the instant skill chips are returned, since the glut of players leaving the game will all be chipping out at the sime time, crashing that market.

And thus is introduced the second golden age of chipping in.

If enough of these people choose the former of these options, we will have an economic crisis on our hands in the game where markup prices will be erased. For most players, the real value of their accounts is not in TT, but in the market value of their items. This would mean for those players that their accounts will be worth the same as if they were banned and deleted. This would be the essential outcome anyway with a true bank run on the game. The economics for Mindark to continue running the platform for FPC would topple over, and force them to shut down server activity.

Hardly. MU, by definition is paid by other players, not MA/FPC. They can't be hurt by MU rising and falling, they can only benefit. If you need, I can sketch out how that works.



As for many of your other comments, I'll agree that MA/FPC has made poor business decisions, and they have a lot of room for improvement. However, keep in mind they are a small company, growing faster than they can comfortably endure. They can't hire too many customer support, or game coders, (for reasons of their own choosing) so those employees are highly overworked. No wonder support is mostly canned responses. Do you have any idea how many support cases they get, especially during huge VUs like this?

Also, I suspect some of their game coders are sub-par, but they simply can't fire them, due to various labor laws.

Fifth, perhaps it is too late to put the genie back in the bottle, but the L world you have created makes it impossible for players to build and improve upon their accounts. SIB is fine, but L is ridiculous and harmful. Seriously.

(L) Items saved this economy, not screwed it up. Take your mind back to a time when everything was UL. Every ML-35 that dropped stays ingame forever. Question: How many can you comfortably drop? What about ep-41? Adj fap? DOAs? Thunderbird? Angel?

At what point do you drop so much that the MU on items are near zero? For the answer, ask any old player in the 2003 era. Or, before the amp nerf, ask any player who TT'd anything A104 and below because they dropped so much.

EP-41s went from being +300 back in '06 to being in the 1K range, despite the fact that many (L) weapons deliver much more dmg/sec.

Also, considering (L), don't forget how many of us practically lived off of korss 400(L). They were over 150%, even though thy dropped from e-v-e-r-y feff global and most bristelhog globals too.

Thunderbird UL is over 6k, even though you can get an almost full (L) set for 103%. Using that (L) armor and an (L) gun, my friend hunted Cersumon and walked away w/ a big hof that included a full TT ESI. He's not upset at the cost of (L). And those that sold them aren't upset either.

Had his only choice been to buy UL TB and a UL weapon w/ enough dmg/sec, he could never have hunted those.

Also remember that (L) had quite the impact on LG.

Both UL and (L) are needed.

Sixth, you advertise about being a place where people can invest, but once invested, change your story about whether or not the funds that were deposited into your bank account were investments or entertainment fees. It is either an investment, or a fee, but not both. If it is an investment, then you have a responsibility to your investors to protect their investments, or risk loosing all future funds from them, as well as what is left of the present ones. You may be able to adjust all aspects of the game, but that does not make you lords of the universe. Your investors are, and will always be the ones in control. This fact can only be ignored for a very short period of time. If it is a fee, then let us know, so we can stop flushing money into this game and pay $15 a month for our entertainment somewhere else.

This is indeed a dangerous place to invest large amounts of money. What place that offers as much potential income isn't? And yes, MA is the lord of this Universe. We have to remember that fully. Anything can change at any time. Invest or don't but keep that in mind, please. It's your prerogative.
 
L is the only way foreward in any real economy.
(Just imagine what would happen if we all could get our old car completely fixed in a second, with a simple click in a machine.)

From my point of view, there are three problems with (L):
One problem is that MA quickly made top-level repairable couterparts of (L), which sort of defeated the purpose of having the advantage of being more efficient but with the disadvantage of having to be purchased new. This means that there probably is a few repairable SIB items out there that are used very heavily, while other players who try to reach that level have to pay a big markup.

When it comes to armor, there is the problem of synchronizing 7 armor parts. For some armor sets, there is a part that's dropped from a mob that is rarely hunted or rarely globals, for instance, making that part a bottleneck. Then there are (L) armors like Shadow(L), and the problem is obvious: Since there is no guarantee a part will be looted for a long time, it's probably a headache if it's to be used seriously.

The third disadvantage is the headache for the mid-level players: Following the rules of supply and demand, the items that most people are most efficient with will cost more than the items at uberlevel or beginner level, in most cases. If you're a mid level player and skill up at normal pace, you'll do so at same speed as the 50% of population. So for most mid-level players it's expensive to "hunt at your level".

Other examples is that it's a complex market; that reselling of weapon amp BPs make them expensive; almost noone use Bulltac 70 (for Apis) except at special occasions, and using amps like Shear 600 pro for hunting (same dmg as blp Dante) is almost insane. Also that the complex nature of some of the (L) weapons makes them more expensive to craft which makes them more expnsive to buy (eg Scorpious).
 
PS: the MM you can still get, I bought mine for 245k. Didn't deposit a dime, played in events, played smart. etc.
245k peds - impressive!

Probably not possible for me though to push the ammount needed through my "gun": Imagine an average loot markup of 10%, it would mean I would have to cycle 2.4M peds in ammo. And the decay I would spend to pull that amount through my gun, thinking of a gun like apis, would probably be roughly around 500k peds in decay costs.
 
i dont think its so dangerous lighten up dude
it's just a game :hug:
 
245k peds - impressive!

Probably not possible for me though to push the ammount needed through my "gun": Imagine an average loot markup of 10%, it would mean I would have to cycle 2.4M peds in ammo. And the decay I would spend to pull that amount through my gun, thinking of a gun like apis, would probably be roughly around 500k peds in decay costs.

he was also lucky he got 3 times ath old times with big items like mod dar so dunno if that only have to do with smart playing he was nuub in vigi like me that time seems he just have been more lucky old times than others ;)
 
JC, while I agree with some of what you are saying has happened, I wholeheartedly disagree with much of WHY you say it has happened.

OK, let's look at some specific things.



Incorrect. MA has "adjusted" loot balance quite often, in terms of what drops from which mob, etc. (I.E. argo used to drop muscle oil, but that was quickly changed.) But I think once you analyze it, the loot distribution has more to do with player actions than MA's. I'll explain later. However suffice it to say that smart playing is still profitable.

Players hunt according to what mobs drop what loot. We respond to our environment. The problem is that as Mindark finds that any of us have found a comfortable pattern, they change that pattern at whim. This does not necessarily aid any other players, but rather, harms those who have figured parts of the game out.

Meaning others are buying. ;) (Again, explained later.)

At vastly discounted prices, thereby lowering the potential value of the accounts belonging to those who do not cash out.



No, they tested it. They simply did a poor job of it. As I said in my VU10 comment thread, I was also unhappy w/ the amount of problems in the initial release, (so we are in agreement there) but I knew they would be bringing in many patches. So far they have been.

Patches aside, it is the slipshod attitude they took towards the release of this incomplete product that causes consternation. We would have been happy to beta test in a non-RCE beta for a couple weeks in order to iron out the problems. Throwing us into a broken and unfinished product is simply not acceptable when real money is involved. There is no justification for the way the VU was released.



Which they told us about before implementing it. It's not like they sprung it on us. We didn't install VU10 and go "WTF? Where is MF or team hunting or our apts.?" If you understood how interwoven this economy is, you'd understand that was a warning.

The warning does not excuse the absence.



Tweaked mostly by us, the players, and by MA/FPC but only in that everything isn't implemented atm. Let me explain this interwoven economy as it relates to VU10 so far.

* No Mindforce
Result = Market for MF chips, nexus, sweat, mind essence, Etc. is down. Also reduced travel speed (no tp jumps) = reduced activity.

* No Team hunting
Result = Less high maturity mobs being hunted, reducing the items they drop, making MU on them higher

* Higher computer requirements
Result = Many players (more than you think) being pushed out of game until they can afford better computers, which also reduces the amount they can deposit.

* No apts
Result = Little if any haircutting/body sculpting, thus reducing prices on hairspray, etc.

* No beacons
Result = spaceships & beacon runs were a huge source of robot res, used for making certain faps and other items. This huge reduction in res has forced the crafting cost of those items to increase ~4-5% in res cost, although they are selling for roughly the same cost, thus crafters are profiting (and able to spend) less. (Although robot res sellers are profiting more, so that evens out.)

* No pets
Result = fruit, whip, sweetstuff, nutrio bars, etc. all reduced in price.

* Gray furniture
Result = Although clothing is the major focus for painting/textures, furniture and other (C) items did help increase demand for paints/textures. Now those industries are also lagging.

No face masks, plus many other things I can site. All of these have affected major (if underappreciated) sections of this economy. Many folks who have relied on those industries have stopped playing atm, so we lose their activity/decay as well. However, note these are all simply missing pieces that will come back eventually. As they do, those economies will rev back up.

This is a list of things that Mindark knowingly omitted from vu10 in order to release it as soon as possible, thereby damaging the economy in each instance. There was grumbling about the time it took to release vu10, but that was brought on by poor marketing from Mindark, as well as poor communication. To make a statement that the damage done to the economy through the absence of these features that many players have come to rely on as a means of income is irresponsible.



Absolute rubbish. DOA loudmouth, imp fap, mod fap, and many more "uber" items dropped to quite "casual players" (meaning they did not previously posses those types of items.)

Yes, many items have been looted by uber players. What's the problem?

The DOA looted from atrox was looted by a player who uses a DOA. The modfap was looted by someone who hunts daspletors, hardly a casual player. I personally don't care one way or another about SGA, or who loots what, but I do care about how Mindark represents the event to its customers.



Folks have quit (and come back) after every major VU so far. You weren't here for the footguard/armor decay debacle or the amp nerf, or the skill nerf. Trust me when I say many folks left then too, but somehow those worked out in the end.

Those issues were also damaging to the economy, and while it may at first blush seem a logical conclusing, I personally find it to be a non sequitor to say that becaue the economy survived earlier handicaps (all brought on by the malfeacance of Mindark, mind you), it will be able to survive this one. At some level of damage to an economy, you find a breaking point. What I fear is that the game has reached that point.


While that situation occurred due to a technical error by MA which allowed certain folks back into this Universe, account locks were required while tracking the movement of the items in question. Jolana was hardly the only one. Those that are truly innocent get their account released eventually.

Eventually may not be soon enough to rectify the situation for Jolana, as she has real life obligations to meet with the income gathered from her ingame bank. This goes again to Mindark's foolish attempt to redefine investors and their investments to gaming participants and their entertainment fees.



Poor choice of words aside, MA/FPC's official attitude has always been that we (the players) are free to come and go, buy in and sell out, as we wish. Some folks are in a holding pattern, and others are doing "business as usual". FPC has offered many events over the years to "increase sales" so to speak. SGA was always planned as another and we all knew that. That the economy was so poor before hand made no difference. (Though I personally would have preferred for them to wait 2-3 months before doing it, but it was their call.)

It is not just a poor choice of words, but a reflection of an overall attitude towards the customers that Mindark refuses to recognize as such.

Yes, MA/FPC's history of lacking communication is legendary, but the players insistence on over analyzing their comments is also historic. However, it is true that those two facts are interrelated.

With so much need for communication, and the great poverty of it we experience from Mindark, we are left with nothing but the over anylization, as you call it, to try and make some sense of the nonsensical actions Mindark takes.

Reread David's quote again, then carefully read his signature.

His signature does not excuse him from being a representative of the company. If he wishes to engage in childish insults, he should do so on his own time, on an account that does not represent the company.



For the reasons I mentioned above. Which, ironically just makes loot even worse.

That worsening is a result of Mindark's actions, not the customers.

Consider the loot pool as a more of a response to the players activities, not MAs. For example, had Buzz not camped those big longu, and spent so much on them, would that big hof had dropped? Would Starman's 100k beanie click have waited for someone else?

It wasn't coincidence that the dasp ATHs came so soon after so much was pumped into them via WoF. The same thing happened to the globsters.

I mention uber hofs/ATHs, but consider this also relates to overall market activity. Someone skills heavy on springs, thus keeping the eye oil market in the 102% range, not 100.5%

So with that in mind, consider that the week FPC was down for VU10 install, there was zero activity for the system to pull from. Also remember that due to many computer problems and such mentioned above that much of the player base wasn't logging in, nor playing as much.

If loot out is based directly on decay spent, and activity is greatly reduced, then what is the expected outcome of the loot? Which makes folks wait, which reduces activity, which lowers loot, which makes folks wait...

It's not MA, it's us.

By steadily lowering the average loots on short term (I will not argue that if you include all the ATH's you will get back to 90%, but that 90% is being concentrated towards a smaller and smaller percentage of the population, random though those lucky ones may be), Mindark has caused players to stop depositing, and stop their hunting/mining/crafting activities. The fewer our ranks become, the larger a percentage Mindark has to take from our loot to pay the bills, meaning more players become frustrated and leave, meaning a larger percentage of loot is taken, etc. We are part of the cycle, but we are not willing participants in it. The first cause belongs to Mindark, and it will only be them that can fix it.



And thus is introduced the second golden age of chipping in.

Yes, I can't wait to buy skills at 300%, assuming the game is still around for me to buy them. I feel badly for the players who wish to leave whose accounts are made near worthless, though. It shouldn't be this way, and is only made so because Mindark has made another foolish decision about the economy.



Hardly. MU, by definition is paid by other players, not MA/FPC. They can't be hurt by MU rising and falling, they can only benefit. If you need, I can sketch out how that works.

Great, Mindark benefits, and the players who have invested in the game suffer. That is hardly a fantastic incentive for up and coming players to make their own investments?



As for many of your other comments, I'll agree that MA/FPC has made poor business decisions, and they have a lot of room for improvement. However, keep in mind they are a small company, growing faster than they can comfortably endure. They can't hire too many customer support, or game coders, (for reasons of their own choosing) so those employees are highly overworked. No wonder support is mostly canned responses. Do you have any idea how many support cases they get, especially during huge VUs like this?

I really do not care one way or another for their support team. I do not use it. Nothing gets done. Being vocal on this fansite does.

Also, I suspect some of their game coders are sub-par, but they simply can't fire them, due to various labor laws.

Be that as it may, it does not excuse their poor management of the ingame universe.



(L) Items saved this economy, not screwed it up. Take your mind back to a time when everything was UL. Every ML-35 that dropped stays ingame forever. Question: How many can you comfortably drop? What about ep-41? Adj fap? DOAs? Thunderbird? Angel?

At what point do you drop so much that the MU on items are near zero? For the answer, ask any old player in the 2003 era. Or, before the amp nerf, ask any player who TT'd anything A104 and below because they dropped so much.

EP-41s went from being +300 back in '06 to being in the 1K range, despite the fact that many (L) weapons deliver much more dmg/sec.

Also, considering (L), don't forget how many of us practically lived off of korss 400(L). They were over 150%, even though thy dropped from e-v-e-r-y feff global and most bristelhog globals too.

Thunderbird UL is over 6k, even though you can get an almost full (L) set for 103%. Using that (L) armor and an (L) gun, my friend hunted Cersumon and walked away w/ a big hof that included a full TT ESI. He's not upset at the cost of (L). And those that sold them aren't upset either.

Had his only choice been to buy UL TB and a UL weapon w/ enough dmg/sec, he could never have hunted those.

Also remember that (L) had quite the impact on LG.

Both UL and (L) are needed.

Again, there are two overriding issues with this. One, due to markup, improving your gameplay by increasing the size of your gun, and potency of yoru armor becomes prohibitive. Before L, this was possible. Perhaps the markup of these UL armors and guns was high, but it was also possible to camp the mobs that dropped them, and actually loot them if you were determined. It was also possible to sell your less effective equipment to the players coming up behind you, and take that with some additional investment, and get something better. Now that better gun will continue to cost ridiculous markup over and over again. Secondly, the L weapons and armors have devalued the investments players made in their UL counterparts before the L junk was introduced.


This is indeed a dangerous place to invest large amounts of money. What place that offers as much potential income isn't? And yes, MA is the lord of this Universe. We have to remember that fully. Anything can change at any time. Invest or don't but keep that in mind, please. It's your prerogative.


I could not disagree more. MA is not lord of this universe. It's like an old quote from Henry Ford. "Employers do not pay salaries. It is the customers who pay the salaries. The employers only handle the money." Mindark does not control the universe they created. The customers control it, and allow that control to be ceded back to Mindark so long as they choose to pay. At some point, however, that cashflow may cease if enough customers become dissatisfied with the service they are receiving, and that time is coming soon if nothing changes.
 
Sixth, you advertise about being a place where people can invest, but once invested, change your story about whether or not the funds that were deposited into your bank account were investments or entertainment fees. It is either an investment, or a fee, but not both. If it is an investment, then you have a responsibility to your investors to protect their investments, or risk loosing all future funds from them, as well as what is left of the present ones. You may be able to adjust all aspects of the game, but that does not make you lords of the universe. Your investors are, and will always be the ones in control. This fact can only be ignored for a very short period of time. If it is a fee, then let us know, so we can stop flushing money into this game and pay $15 a month for our entertainment somewhere else.

Just to reiterate for the "consider every PED deposited a loss" (and) "if you don't like it, QUIT!" fanboys with bugger all "invested" in EU to ponder over for a second. Just for a second..
 
ROFL....i have to laugh at this. I do alright in game and i am level 46 hit, 144 health and mainly ghost and 5b's!!!

Now if they are "priceless items" damn everyone in game is suddenly dirt rich

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: i forgot the guns i use....all limited ;)
EDIT2: total skills around 155k as well

Yeah yeah yeah, you profit on everything, life is a highway and you wanna ride it all night long... we're all idiots, etc etc.
Congratz.
:rolleyes:
 
This is an utter lie, or at the very least a bad guess :rolleyes:

You do realise people use generalisations, right? I mean... "you guys" (see, there's one there) do it all the time to.
Him saying "everyone" obviously doesn't mean every single person in the EU community.
If you're still denying the fact so many people are pissed off, you're ignorant.


ps: sorry for 3 posts in a row lol
pps: this is gonna turn ugly, so I'm pulling out now.
ppps: see sig.
 
The DOA looted from atrox was looted by a player who uses a DOA. The modfap was looted by someone who hunts daspletors, hardly a casual player. I personally don't care one way or another about SGA, or who loots what, but I do care about how Mindark represents the event to its customers.

DOA yes, was looted by someone who was using one, But he looted the one he was using, he wasn't godly uber.

Mod fap was looted by someone in ghost using an L gun. If you have more than 130 hp and a fapper, you can hunt dasp.


Yes, I can't wait to buy skills at 300%, assuming the game is still around for me to buy them. I feel badly for the players who wish to leave whose accounts are made near worthless, though. It shouldn't be this way, and is only made so because Mindark has made another foolish decision about the economy.

Skill's won't be 300%, they will be around the average, I think your assuming 75% of eu is dissatisfied, I think that number may only be about 20-30%. Maybe not even that, it seems like that due to the negative being a more vocal thing than the positive. Most people I talk to are happy with the update. And now a days the Main reason people are unhappy is due to the lack of Mindforce and team hunting etc. Soon as that is reimplemented I'll expect you'll see alot less "the sky is falling posts"

I'll bet that the skills will be the same price as before.
 
Players hunt according to what mobs drop what loot. We respond to our environment. The problem is that as Mindark finds that any of us have found a comfortable pattern, they change that pattern at whim. This does not necessarily aid any other players, but rather, harms those who have figured parts of the game out.

There have been no major changes in loot drops recently, other than the addition of the SGA items. Argo still loot iron and eye oil, bots still drops parts and gazz, atrox still loot boards and cb13(L).

In fact, this lack of loot change has actually been a problem. Some of the currently missing mobs were the source of certain items which are, atm, low in supply, such as the robot res I mentioned before.

Yes, MA/FPC does alter drops, but you make it sound like the loot list of each mob changes completely every 2 months, which it does not.

Also, for folks that are harmed by loot changes, others are rewarded.

At vastly discounted prices, thereby lowering the potential value of the accounts belonging to those who do not cash out.

You being a car salesman should know the value of buying low and selling high. Reduced value does not stay reduced, just as overly high prices do not stay either.

Patches aside, it is the slipshod attitude they took towards the release of this incomplete product that causes consternation. We would have been happy to beta test in a non-RCE beta for a couple weeks in order to iron out the problems. Throwing us into a broken and unfinished product is simply not acceptable when real money is involved. There is no justification for the way the VU was released.

This is a list of things that Mindark knowingly omitted from vu10 in order to release it as soon as possible, thereby damaging the economy in each instance. There was grumbling about the time it took to release vu10, but that was brought on by poor marketing from Mindark, as well as poor communication. To make a statement that the damage done to the economy through the absence of these features that many players have come to rely on as a means of income is irresponsible.

What would you have preferred MA/FPC to do, wait another 2 years to finally release a fully working Calypso, which btw, would have contained even more bugs than 10.0.0 did?

We both know more and more players were taking a "stop playing and wait for CE2" attitude. If they had sit waiting for yet another 2 years, it would have been even worse. MA's choices were:

  • Do nothing until all systems were available (and bugged)
  • Release a basic (and bugged) version of Calypso

In all honesty, neither was a winning choice.

The DOA looted from atrox was looted by a player who uses a DOA. The modfap was looted by someone who hunts daspletors, hardly a casual player.

You are confusing the DOA Foeripper with the DOA loudmouth I mentioned which was looted from an Ambu old. Even you could have hunted those. ;) Also another loudmouth was looted from an ambu young to a guy using a korss 400(L). Hardly uber.

As Da mentioned above, the mod fap looter was a 1st time Dasp hunter who hired a fapper (ironically, Scudd with the Imp fap SGA) and used mid-level basic gear. Even I've done that, and I surely don't qualify as uber.

These are not uber players by any means, although they do have good skills yes.

I personally don't care one way or another about SGA, or who loots what, but I do care about how Mindark represents the event to its customers.

From the "press release" on IGN about SGA.

As if players needed more incentive than a beautiful new world and new content, First Planet has also declared a "Second Golden Age" during which players have a chance to find elite items that will never be made public again. The developers have provided us with a list of the top ten such items, plus clues to where you can find some of them. Keep in mind that you can legitimately sell these items for real money and that they may someday be even more valuable!

I do not see where they've misrepresented themselves.

Those issues were also damaging to the economy, and while it may at first blush seem a logical conclusing, I personally find it to be a non sequitor to say that becaue the economy survived earlier handicaps (all brought on by the malfeacance of Mindark, mind you), it will be able to survive this one. At some level of damage to an economy, you find a breaking point. What I fear is that the game has reached that point.

Are you scared the skills you bought will not hold their value when you chip back out?


Eventually may not be soon enough to rectify the situation for Jolana, as she has real life obligations to meet with the income gathered from her ingame bank. This goes again to Mindark's foolish attempt to redefine investors and their investments to gaming participants and their entertainment fees.

First, MA has repeatedly helped folks who had trouble getting their loans paid due to "closed bank doors" for various reasons. No one is in trouble of losing their hawked items. Yes it will require contacting the overworked support staff, but your items will be returned if the bank closes during Jolana's account lock.

Second, what would you prefer FPC to do? She made loans on "suspect items" and FPC needs to track down the transactions and figure WTF is going on? Should FPC treat her like something special just because she runs a business on Calypso? She's being treated exactly like you, me, Mercury, or anyone else would/will be under the same situation. And I'm ok w/ that.


That worsening is a result of Mindark's actions, not the customers.

I believe it's both. :)

We, the players, want to pat ourselves on the back for "playing smart" when we profit, but when things go bad, we never admit the possibility of "playing bad" and always blame MA/FPC.

  • Good loot = our being smart
  • Bad loot = MA sucks

You don't see just a little problem with that? :rolleyes:

The fewer our ranks become, the larger a percentage Mindark has to take from our loot to pay the bills, meaning more players become frustrated and leave, meaning a larger percentage of loot is taken, etc. We are part of the cycle,

Ah, we agree then that our actions affect the economy. :yay:

but we are not willing participants in it. The first cause belongs to Mindark, and it will only be them that can fix it.

Whoops. Spoke too soon. :(

Yes, I can't wait to buy skills at 300%, assuming the game is still around for me to buy them. I feel badly for the players who wish to leave whose accounts are made near worthless, though. It shouldn't be this way, and is only made so because Mindark has made another foolish decision about the economy.

But consider this: Why would you buy someone's skills, even at 300%? What benefit are they to you? answer that honestly.

Great, Mindark benefits, and the players who have invested in the game suffer. That is hardly a fantastic incentive for up and coming players to make their own investments?

No one forced Blackhawk to buy Pham's mod merc for $13,000 USD, but I'm pretty sure he's pretty happy, even if he were forced to sell it for half that.

No one forced Neomaven or Skippie to buy malls from their previous owners. One did a good job of managing it and got their investment back. The other had to sell theirs and went on to profit elsewhere.

Etopia made good money making clothes. Now he's adjusting to a new economy.

I can go on for days about folks who have either succeeded or failed in EU both because of, and in spite of, MA/FPC.

Be that as it may, it does not excuse their poor management of the ingame universe.

Oh I completely agree MA/FPC have managed things poorly. However, they are not the only ones.


Again, there are two overriding issues with this. One, due to markup, improving your gameplay by increasing the size of your gun, and potency of yoru armor becomes prohibitive. Before L, this was possible.

Actually, no it wasn't. There was much grumbling about the fact that at a certain point, so much money was needed to invest to the "next step" almost no one could do it. I even had a well received thread about this fact back in the day.

Perhaps the markup of these UL armors and guns was high, but it was also possible to camp the mobs that dropped them, and actually loot them if you were determined.

All I can say to that is :laugh: I have more chance of looting SGA items while mining then I did looting DOAs or ML-35s or a full angel or tiger suit 3 years ago.

It was also possible to sell your less effective equipment to the players coming up behind you, and take that with some additional investment, and get something better.

That's very possible today. I've been camping merps and berries for a while and have been able to sell almost every piece of shogun and kobold I've looted. If I wanted, I could sell my entire armor collection and invest that into one mid-high end armor set if I wanted. I could sell my gun collection and buy a nice MK.V I believe.

Now that better gun will continue to cost ridiculous markup over and over again. Secondly, the L weapons and armors have devalued the investments players made in their UL counterparts before the L junk was introduced.

If the markup of (L) items are too much, don't buy. I can use a maxed HL15 but there's no way I'm paying 200%+ for them. I hunt with my Ep-40 or korss 400 or T10 or CB19. Why? Because they're cheap and good enough to kill what I hunt.

I could not disagree more. MA is not lord of this universe. It's like an old quote from Henry Ford. "Employers do not pay salaries. It is the customers who pay the salaries. The employers only handle the money." Mindark does not control the universe they created. The customers control it, and allow that control to be ceded back to Mindark so long as they choose to pay. At some point, however, that cashflow may cease if enough customers become dissatisfied with the service they are receiving, and that time is coming soon if nothing changes.

In regards that bolded part, we agree. ;) And while MA/FPC are no saints, and have made huge mistakes, we are not blameless either.
 
JC, you and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I do not argue that everyone is responsible for their own gameplay, and ped balance, but Mindark also is responsible for these things. Mindark has the ability to make success easier, or more difficult. Heretofor, they have chosen the latter of those possabilities. This is not supposed to be work for those that wish to be casual gamers and have fun. It is not supposed to be nearly impossible for those who wish to count their pennies and attempt to profit. With the exception of the trader profession, the ability to succeed in any area of this game is exponentially more difficult than nearly any real life counterpart in business. But there's an old saying about the gold rush. The only ones who got any gold were the ones selling the shovels. So from now on, Selling full TT shovels 120% @ TP.
 
I'm overly aggitated as well, but what can ya do? MA is in the business of making money, and as long as they're making it, they're doing their job. The only reason they would even care about our happiness is to make more money. EVERYTHING they do is to make more money... period. Its a business, just like any other. As long as we keep playing, they dont have to do anything differently. We can bitch, moan, whine... alllll day long. As long as we keep dumping money in... nothing changes. I work for the gaming industry. I hear it all day from customers at these casinos. They throw absolute fits, make crazy accusations that they're being scammed, robbed, etc etc etc.... yet its those same people that I see in there every single day. (p.s. that wasn't me comparing EU to a casino... that's a different thread) Does the casino raise the par percentages on their machines when the customer throw a fit? Nope. Not at all. Sometimes they even lower them when they know they're gonna be busy cause it makes them more money. When they do promotions and give-aways and such.... THEY make 100 times more than the value of the crappy prizes they give away.

Basically what I'm saying is I feel ya... I really do. I get pissed at the game just like the next guy (or girl) but I realize that complaining isn't going to change anything or do any good. I make the choice to keep playing. Inevitably, everything that happens is my fault. I lose... my fault. I can always quit... I've done it before.... but I came back. I don't know why I'm rambling. Its late and I've read too much tonight. In short.. I agree with ya... but what can we do? All quit? That'll never happen. I'll be in Saransk if anyone is looking for me ;)
 
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