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Wow! Is this loss typical?

JohnCapital

JohnCapital

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John Teacher Capital
Holy <insert something funny here>! I just talked with a soc mate and wanted to convey what I just learned. This may not be anything new to y'all veteran chippers, but....

My soc mate just got hold of 1700 LB chip and it increased her skills a whopping 500 points.

So her LB skills were already high, right? Nope.

Before chip = 25xx
After chip = 29xx

Under 3k and you lose 2/3 of the skills? That's ridiculous.

Is this typical?
 
I think if you're over 2k in any skill, chipping that skill gets progressively more expensive. So my :twocents: :yes, this is normal.
 
dbelinfante said:
I think if you're over 2k in any skill, chipping that skill gets progressively more expensive. So my :twocents: :yes, this is normal.
Click to expand...

Progressively? losing 2/3 at that low level? I can't imagine what good chipping at, say 6k or 8k would do. You'd lose 99%, I reckon.

Guess chipping is only for low level players, period, huh?
 
dude, have you ever taken a look at a chart howmuch esi's certain levels fill?

http://entropiatools.com/numchips.php

-> 1 chip (old system)
2000lvls -> 10.12TT
-> 2 chips:
2750lvls ->21.06TT

to gain those 750levels extra means 1 more old system chip (approx)

the 1700levels chip your socm8 got wasnt even a 10ped tt chip i presume (more like 9ish?) so that got him about 500 levels more than current level

seriously though, what did you think, only 5 chips to get 10k in 1 skill? :D
 
Again a little digging in ancient posts:

This diagram picts the old skill-system. New system is a bit nerfed and may be a bit harder - especially after the first 2k. This is also stated officially from MA in the previous VU-information.

Basically you need 10 ped chip for the first 2k skills. Then 20 ped chip for skills from 2k-3k.

The diagrams are taken from THIS old thread. ;)

Smaller diagram showing the chipping out up to 3000 skills
skilldiagram.jpg


Large diagram showing chipping out up to 9000 skills.
skilldiagram2.jpg
 
Those graphs say everything. But one mistake you make is that you say loose. You only loose 10% as stated by MA. If you chip out those 500, you will get approx. the same chip back.
It's only being fair. Skilling from 0 to 1700 can be done with small (L) guns in few days. Skilling from 9k to 10 k takes ages with uber guns.
See it as experience points. At lowel levels you need like 1 experience point for 1 skill level. At high level you will need 200 experience points for 1 skill level.

Skill chips transfer experience points, not skill levels.
 
Last edited:
There is also the infamous slow down around 3K, and im sure that chipping somehow takes that into account.

so if she got to 2985 or so...then she will most certainly be disappointed trying to get over 3K.

Regards,
 
i always right click on the chip while its in auction and it w ill tell you what your at now and what it will bring you to before you purcahse it so no supprise then
 
Would just like to emphasize what chielsen had to say.

Nothing is lost here. If your friend was to chip out back from 29xx to 25xx she would get back the 1700 skill chip minus the 10% chipping loss.
 
This is how the skill nerf looks like:

skillnerf.jpg


As you can see, the real nerf starts at 4.5k - 5k. Below that level, it stays more or less the same as before, so your chipping at 2k-3k level is almost unaffected by the nerf.

Look at the TT value of the chip (the vertical axis) as the real skilling "experience". It follows an exponential trend, roughly, so the more to the right you are in the X axis, the more "uphill" the skilling becomes :)

Cheers,
/jdegre.

PS.: The two lines in each curve means the 10% loss in the chip TT value when chipping out.
 
Last edited:
jdegre said:
This is how the skill nerf looks like:

skillnerf.jpg


As you can see, the real nerf starts at 4.5k - 5k. Below that level, it stays more or less the same as before, so your chipping at 2k-3k level is almost unaffected by the nerf.

Look at the TT value of the chip (the vertical axis) as the real skilling "experience". It follows an exponential trend, roughly, so the more to the right you are in the X axis, the more "uphill" the skilling becomes :)

Cheers,
/jdegre.

PS.: The two lines in each curve means the 10% loss in the chip TT value when chipping out.
Click to expand...

Nice graph. I always was under the impression that after 10K it would become a straght line. Is that true?
 
Pretty bad news for anybody that had 4.5-5k in most skills at the time of the VU. Really easy for anybody to catch you up but extremely hard for you to progress much further.
 
Witte said:
Nice graph. I always was under the impression that after 10K it would become a straght line. Is that true?
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know how the graph continues for higher skill levels. I did the old graph with the data from entropiatools site, and the new graph I did it reviewing dozens of chips at the auction. Unfortunately I'm a noob and my highest skill is only at 6k, so it is pretty hard for me to complete the graph for higher levels.

/jdegre.
 
Gee, and it's a "minor" adjustment according to MA VU release notes.
 
Mel said:
Gee, and it's a "minor" adjustment according to MA VU release notes.
Click to expand...

Well what did you expect them to say?
'This VU we really screwed you, suckers!!'?

I remember Marco calming fears a while ago with a comment along the lines of "this time next year all of you here will be veterans". I guess he was truthful in a way but forgot to add that the year after that you will still be veterans, and the year after that, and the year after that... :laugh:
 
Thanks for all the information, guys. All of this I generally knew before. I knew the rise was a slope, not a straight line and that the skill nerf increased the slope a L-O-T.

I was just amazed at the piss poor results at such a low level.

EDIT:
And yes, I realize if they chip out those skills, only the 10% loss is "real". However, that doesn't make the gains any better.
 
demoniac said:
Well what did you expect them to say?
'This VU we really screwed you, suckers!!'?

I remember Marco calming fears a while ago with a comment along the lines of "this time next year all of you here will be veterans". I guess he was truthful in a way but forgot to add that the year after that you will still be veterans, and the year after that, and the year after that... :laugh:
Click to expand...

:laugh:

Well, lets first see what the future will bring us before we panic ;). Like already discussed in the other topic, my prediction is that our progress will be allot more item based then skillbased in the future.
 
Mel said:
Gee, and it's a "minor" adjustment according to MA VU release notes.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this "minor" adjustment means simply put that, to go from 6k to 7k, I must skills three times as much as before (100 tt -> 300 tt), and it gets much worse for higher levels.
The nerf is so brutal that it is ridiculous to think on skilling anymore.

/jdegre.
 
jdegre said:
Yeah, this "minor" adjustment means simply put that, to go from 6k to 7k, I must skills three times as much as before (100 tt -> 300 tt), and it gets much worse for higher levels.
The nerf is so brutal that it is ridiculous to think on skilling anymore.

/jdegre.
Click to expand...

I am not sure, but I can remeber people with 10k+ skill they also need 3 times the ESI they needed before. If thats true, it means the lines in your graph will indeed continue as a straight line.
 
the problem i see, is the disadvantage towards new player like me, compared to the very old accounts

the older had the possibility to get cheap skills by abusing gameweaknesses - you know what i mean - while they can keep their high skills, a new player can never reach those high skills anymore now due to the changes

it would have been fair, to take skillpoints away from the ubers, in relation to the difficulty the new player have to face now (take a look at the chart: the difference for an old account with ~7,6k would be ~1,1k compared to a new account with ~6,5k, par example -> ma should have taken 1,1k away from his skill to make it even)
 
Witte said:
Nice graph. I always was under the impression that after 10K it would become a straght line. Is that true?
Click to expand...

Yes its true - unless they also changed this, the straight line begins after 8k (roughly). In the old system 1 esi could take 40 skillpoints from there, and this would continue as far as testing results could be made (12k).

In new VU-terms this would apply to approximately 250 ped esi for every 1k skill-increase to be made above 8k. However, the nerfing would suggest this number to be even higher now. Who knows, maybe its not even linear any more.

Pretty nifty. In other words; when you reach 8k in a skill it becomes minimum 25 times harder to get a skillpoint :silly2:
 
Familiarize yourself with the aside in that thread to get a visual analogy for what you're observing. If what you read here or there disturbs you, please make your thoughts known to MA.
 
Waldi said:
the problem i see, is the disadvantage towards new player like me, compared to the very old accounts

the older had the possibility to get cheap skills by abusing gameweaknesses - you know what i mean - while they can keep their high skills, a new player can never reach those high skills anymore now due to the changes

it would have been fair, to take skillpoints away from the ubers, in relation to the difficulty the new player have to face now (take a look at the chart: the difference for an old account with ~7,6k would be ~1,1k compared to a new account with ~6,5k, par example -> ma should have taken 1,1k away from his skill to make it even)
Click to expand...

agree and disagree

agree = course its not fair (at first sight)
disagree = EU continues to develop and consequently changes will have such an effect. Best example is that ancient & old-time items don't drop anymore ... That's not fair, I too want to loot and ancient item but its just not going to happen, ... And the reason for that is that those players who started at the earliest stages of EU invested a lot of money into a very risky adventure indeed ... Who knew at that point that MA will grow as big as they are now and EU would be a stable (imo) game where you really know that 10 ped are 1 dollar should you need to cash out one day ... To bring my argument to the point, all those things I said are the reason why you can't reach the top that easily nowadays and those who are up there and played from day one - kudos guys, you def. have my respect -

I most certainly will tinker along, develop my avatar and not care much about anything else (no I'm not an old player btw) ... EU remains fun for me and there are so many things I can skill and cross skill that little gains are always apparent and thats nice ...

ILW
 
Waldi said:
the problem i see, is the disadvantage towards new player like me, compared to the very old accounts
Click to expand...

I don't like this comparison. As ILW points out, without the early players there would be no EU today.
 
Insane, this just means that I will sooner die of old age than I ever max out my guns :scratch2:
 
Jimmy B said:
I don't like this comparison. As ILW points out, without the early players there would be no EU today.
Click to expand...

they had already the advantage of the pregold aera (in many cases) and that time is already long gone - in my opinion its enough now, they don´t need more new advantages!

its easy to adjust them too in case of this skill update - why making the gap bigger, when you can´t catch up to them anyway as long as they play?

if the next vu makes the gap bigger once more, the ubers can play alone concerning me - i will be out here, if ma don´t threat all player the same

i deposit, deposit and deposit and it looks like a pyramide, where the top earns and the basis pays and it becomes harder and harder, if not even impossible to reach the top or only the stage where you can play to the usual costs of a mmorpg

4000€ since august - tt-value of the account 8k ped, virtualy 10k ped
(yes, i payed school fee)

nothing more to add :mad:
 
Waldi said:
they had already the advantage of the pregold aera (in many cases) and that time is already long gone - in my opinion its enough now, they don´t need more new advantages!

its easy to adjust them too in case of this skill update - why making the gap bigger, when you can´t catch up to them anyway as long as they play?

if the next vu makes the gap bigger once more, the ubers can play alone concerning me - i will be out here, if ma don´t threat all player the same

i deposit, deposit and deposit and it looks like a pyramide, where the top earns and the basis pays and it becomes harder and harder, if not even impossible to reach the top or only the stage where you can play to the usual costs of a mmorpg

4000€ since august - tt-value of the account 8k ped, virtualy 10k ped
(yes, i payed school fee)

nothing more to add :mad:
Click to expand...

Sorry Waldi but your arguments are somewhat flawed.

Again, I like to draw a a comparison. If I would have bought shares is EM TV in 1998 for 1000 Euro and sold them three years later, I would have had a million as EM TV went through the roof ... So by getting in early you would have had the highest risk as well as the highest earning potential.

Same principle applies to EU - So rather then looking at uber players (who I'd assume invested far more money then you did, despite 4000 Euro being a huge amount) why do you not look at the n00b that starts with 1 agility ... He/She could turn around and say, its not fair that Waldi started with 20 agility ... Same principle ... you got in earlier and reaped that benefit.

ILW

BTW: Never invest more money then you are prepared to lose ... pumping money into EU is like putting it in the slot machine (you know you lose at the end so if you don't find the game entertaining, don't play)
 
Solaris said:
Witte said:
Originally Posted by Witte View Post
Nice graph. I always was under the impression that after 10K it would become a straght line. Is that true?
Click to expand...
Yes its true - unless they also changed this, the straight line begins after 8k (roughly). In the old system 1 esi could take 40 skillpoints from there, and this would continue as far as testing results could be made (12k).

In new VU-terms this would apply to approximately 250 ped esi for every 1k skill-increase to be made above 8k. However, the nerfing would suggest this number to be even higher now. Who knows, maybe its not even linear any more.
...
Click to expand...
Don't think so.
From what I hear, the skill gain decrease continues after 8k too... Maybe only untill 10k, maybe to 12k, maybe forever? don't really know, since I don't have any 10k+ skills (and never will now it seems)

Solaris said:
...
Pretty nifty. In other words; when you reach 8k in a skill it becomes minimum 25 times harder to get a skillpoint :silly2:
Click to expand...
No it's not 25 times harder... More like 10 times slower at 8k.
At 10k+ it's around 20 times from what I hear (or maybe 25).
 
Waldi said:
they had already the advantage of the pregold aera (in many cases) and that time is already long gone - in my opinion its enough now, they don´t need more new advantages!

its easy to adjust them too in case of this skill update - why making the gap bigger, when you can´t catch up to them anyway as long as they play?

if the next vu makes the gap bigger once more, the ubers can play alone concerning me - i will be out here, if ma don´t threat all player the same

i deposit, deposit and deposit and it looks like a pyramide, where the top earns and the basis pays and it becomes harder and harder, if not even impossible to reach the top or only the stage where you can play to the usual costs of a mmorpg

4000€ since august - tt-value of the account 8k ped, virtualy 10k ped
(yes, i payed school fee)

nothing more to add :mad:
Click to expand...

I agree the gap doenst need to get bigger like they did last VU with skill nerf, but that you lost 3k€ out of 4k investment is more your fault (in the way you play the game/universe) and doenst have anything to do with MA changing the skill gains.

If you "throw" your money away with hunting too big mobs or way too small mobs, having much more skill wont help you.
 
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