The Speed of light might not be the speed limit...

Clearly we disagree. :)

A year is defined (measured) by Earth's path around the sun. Imagine if some event occurred to slow down Earth's rotation, would time differ completely or would we simply have 366 day years instead of 365.25?


Define is not measure, that's two completely different things.
And a year is no exact SI value - that's why UTC needs leaps seconds, years need leap days,...


And i do not understand what this got to do with the line you quoted from my post... but fine, i'll bite:

If earth orbit changes, the length of a year changes - if you define "year" as a full trip around the sun.
This has no effect on time, because time is independend from what we call "year".


You appear to have problems understanding what "definition" means.
If you define a year as "trip 'round the sun", of course a year will become longer when the earths orbit changes accordingly and the year needs more time.



If you define A as 1/10 of B, and A changes, obviously B changes, too - but if B changes, this means A has changed.

Definitions are arbitrary, they help us to make sure we mean the same thing when we say "back in 5 minutes" - the underlying values do not change when we change their definition (just all derived definitions).



If you call your dog "cat" and then you tell me you lost your "cat" - do you still have your dog?
 
If earth orbit changes, the length of a year changes - if you define "year" as a full trip around the sun.

Not at all. My point being that there is a big difference between the measured item changing size/length, and the measuring tool changing size/length.

As I said, we clearly disagree on this.
 
Not at all. My point being that there is a big difference between the measured item changing size/length, and the measuring tool changing size/length.

As I said, we clearly disagree on this.

JC, you missed my point again.

Let's say you have a measuring stick, length is 1 meter.
Then you have a rope, which you cut to exactly the same length as the stick: 1 meter.


Two days later you check the rope again, but the stick is suddenly a tiny bit shorter than the rope , let's say 1 millimeter.

It is of course a big difference which of them changed, but that's not the point - you simply can't tell which one is off.



You could use another measuring stick to verify the length of your stick, but this is again prone to the error described above. If the reference stick has the same length as your stick, it is very likely that the rope is too long - but what if both sticks are too short? Even though we'd surely agree that this is not very likely, it is still possible.



To find the way back to where we started that little excursion:
How can you tell which one changed in the experiment with the caesium clocks and the airplane?


Oh, and you didn't answer the question in my last post:
Do you still have your dog?
 
imagen what it will do to entropia.. traveling in time you, will be able to see loot befor you shoot mob.. aint that something.....
 
The issue of gravity affecting time is a bit of either (un)intentional misdirection, or a simple mistake by the scientists. I'll explain.

Take the simple experiment of 2 synchronized atomic clocks and one gets a jet ride. After a while the clock in the jet (depending on the east/west direction of travel) shows either a faster or slower time than the ground-based clock.

The usual explanation is that time changed. But the Reality is simpler. Time didn't change, the tool to measure it did.

Nope. Take for example muons. Muons that stay put, live for a very short time (half life of a couple of usec). If you speed muons up to relativistic speeds, they not just live much longer - they live as much longer as predicted by time dilation by relativity. This is also why muons created by cosmic x-rays hitting atompshere are able to reach Earth's surface.
 
(since we can't control which state the particle will take when observed).


Wasn't there an announcement fairly recently that some research lab has tinkered a statistical approach that is very close to doing that? Sorry - can't remember more about it.
 
Only crazy people and half mad scientists claim that it's possible to travel in time.

Yes, if we travel faster than light we could theoretical see back in time, but that is not the same as travel back in time. What most of us mean by travel back in time is to move and object, like a human, to a time point before an event happened, and that is pretty easy to say it's not possible. Clocks stopping, going slower or going backwards don't change that fact.
 
At a simplistic level, in our real world we can see these 'bridges'. Take a rubber band and make it such that it is almost an 8 figure, but not quite meeting in the middle. If say we're an ant near the middle and can't jump, if we want to get from one side to the other we must traverse half the length of the rubber band. If we're a flea and can jump, we can get from one side to the other with much less effort.


It's an image that geneticists would do well to remember.
 
But when in a different manner you say you're unconvinced and, particularly, that you believe they're not real, I do start to wonder whether we are discussing science or philosophy here. You appear to be taking an educated guess? Which is fine, as long as we don't mistake it for science.


You seem to have got too narrow here.

Whatever science is (about measurement, about experimentation, about hypothesis and falsification?), I don't think that you can or should draw strict boundaries between 'science' and 'philosophy'. Science is science because it explores beyond what it can actually measure or confirm - and philosophy, among other things, is an engine that drives science forward.
 
Wasn't there an announcement fairly recently that some research lab has tinkered a statistical approach that is very close to doing that? Sorry - can't remember more about it.

Quite possible. I was largely going from wiki and references from it, so new advances may be missing.

Whatever science is (about measurement, about experimentation, about hypothesis and falsification?), I don't think that you can or should draw strict boundaries between 'science' and 'philosophy'. Science is science because it explores beyond what it can actually measure or confirm - and philosophy, among other things, is an engine that drives science forward.

To be honest, I couldn't think up anything better but I was trying not to use the word 'philosophy' because rigour of thought is important there too.

I was mainly just trying to say that I didn't really see much point (from a scientific perspective) in making a comment like "I believe in X" or "I don't believe in X" when science's current best understanding can neither prove the non-existence of X nor prove it's existence. Science can only state that X is possible. Adding "I don't believe in X" doesn't seem to take us any further than that.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do, as long as it's clear we're no longer doing science. Scientists like to make guesses as much as anyone else. It can be fun and motivating.
 
I just found an article (in french, why i don't post the link) dated from yesterday saying that similar experiences has been conducted in usa a couple years ago, showing same results, but which had not been validated at times, margin error beeing estimated too big.
In this same article, it is said that USA (Fermilab) is preparing a new batch of experiments with unprecedent precision that should give its results in 3 years from now, so this thread is there for minimum 3 years, lol!
(maybe find something about Minos project, it is called)

Anyone found more recent news than the OP?
 
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Quite possible. I was largely going from wiki and references from it, so new advances may be missing.



To be honest, I couldn't think up anything better but I was trying not to use the word 'philosophy' because rigour of thought is important there too.

I was mainly just trying to say that I didn't really see much point (from a scientific perspective) in making a comment like "I believe in X" or "I don't believe in X" when science's current best understanding can neither prove the non-existence of X nor prove it's existence. Science can only state that X is possible. Adding "I don't believe in X" doesn't seem to take us any further than that.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do, as long as it's clear we're no longer doing science. Scientists like to make guesses as much as anyone else. It can be fun and motivating.

It is true that Science has forgotten it's 'Natural Philosophical' roots. :(
Scientific dogma is the new 'Bible' and Einstein is the misunderstood Prophet of the modern Age...thing is - he wasn't a Scientist.
 
It is true that Science has forgotten it's 'Natural Philosophical' roots.

Well, 'Natural Philosophy' is just another way to say 'Physical Sciences'.

My terminology was bad, I was not attempting to belittle philosophy, nor would I want to. My sole purpose was to suggest that given that science can (currently) neither prove nor disprove the existence of 'wormholes', the statement "I believe wormholes do not exist" does not provide any new knowledge or understanding.

All it tells us is that John's guess is that there are no wormholes. I'm going to guess the other way (as long as we're not thinking of wormholes in the massive spaceship-eating sci-fi sense). And this is entertaining, maybe John will offer a small wager to add to the fun. But I'm not convinced by this stage that we are discussing science any more, I'm not convinced we are discussing philosophy either. We're just guessing.
 
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Two days later you check the rope again, but the stick is suddenly a tiny bit shorter than the rope , let's say 1 millimeter.

you simply can't tell which one is off.

Ah, I see where we're differing in our opinion.

In your example, you are unsure of where the change occurred. In my examples, the change in the measuring device was a known fact.

Of course when you are unsure if the measured or the ruler has changed, then more data is needed. But when it's known which one's been altered, then the issue is finalized.

And this is entertaining, maybe John will offer a small wager to add to the fun. But I'm not convinced by this stage that we are discussing science any more, I'm not convinced we are discussing philosophy either. We're just guessing.

Criteria for winning, and the stakes, please. :)

As for the Muon issue, I did not deny that increased movement has an effect on the item. As I said, I'm not debating the observed and recorded data. I'm debating the conclusions derived from the observations.
 
Oh my, an interesting post on PCF!

Remember, velocity is relative dsplacement in space over time. The "speed" of light may not necesarily been broken. Time is a variable just like velocity. It has already been proven by direct measurment the the rate of time varies relative to velocity and proximity to gravitational fields. We measure the "speed" of the nutrino from our "fixed" position and our own particular rate of temporal flux. The nutrino is pushed to a very high rate of positional displacement which in turn directly effects it's rate of temporal displacement. In other words, from the perspective of the nutrino it may not have exceeded the "speed" of light. This is relevant because even if the nutrino localy did not break the speed of light it's relative velocity from our perspective still demonstrates that Faster Than Light travel may be possible. The nutrino (traveler) can remain at safe energy levels since not localy exceeding the speed of light. But still travel distances over a shorter relative time from the perspective of an outside obsever. If these nutrinos could be used to create a thrust system that could envelope a ship we could create the clasic warp field of science fiction to travel to the stars.

Neato huh...
 
In your example, you are unsure of where the change occurred. In my examples, the change in the measuring device was a known fact.

Of course when you are unsure if the measured or the ruler has changed, then more data is needed. But when it's known which one's been altered, then the issue is finalized.

It is not that just I am unsure in my examples - there is no way you (or anyone else) can tell which one changed, no matter which example you come up with.
The parts of your post i have highlighted simply do not apply to any possible experiment.

Statements like "it is a known fact which one changed" either require that you know that the device is off because you know it has been manipulated (which makes any measuring useless) or you are an omniscient observer like laplaces demon (which makes any measuring useless, too...).
 
there is no way you (or anyone else) can tell which one changed, no matter which example you come up with.

So when my windup watch slows way down, so does time.

Ok, we're done. No reason to go any further with this. :wave:
 
It is not that just I am unsure in my examples - there is no way you (or anyone else) can tell which one changed, no matter which example you come up with.
The parts of your post i have highlighted simply do not apply to any possible experiment.

:scratch2: you seem to be questioning the validity of all empirical observation based science. any instruments of measurement can be checked with calibration or the experiment reset and retested, or having other groups carry out the experiement to rule out instrument problems.
 
Nice thread. :)
Anyway, people tend to forget some important facts. Our knowledge about the universe is based on some assumptions we considered to be true. More than that, the theory we have atm fails to explain a lot of what happens in real life, so the need for dark mater to hold things together is there. It may be there. It may not. Is a theory.

I do think it probably is an error in the way the experiment was done. This is not the case. The problem is that the scientists today tend to be more religious about their believes than priests in some churches. Much like Einstein did when quantum physic was discovered. "God does not play dice".

However, a real scientist must be ready in any moment to accept that all that is known about the universe and all science is false and a way of explaining must be there that was never considered. In other words, to have an open mind. Be ready to go wherever reality points.

There are many theories that are accepted as laws, even tho are not proven. Most common is Darwin theory. Einstein was proven right so many times is considered law already. But it may just be a special case. And light speed may just not be the highest in Universe. Even tho a lot points us in that direction.
 
I just want to know...

How will this effect how motherships and privateers travel through spa.... oh wait, this is in OT forum..

NVM, move along, nothing to see here! ;)
 
Criteria for winning, and the stakes, please. :)

A small sum of PED seems appropriate, say 100 PED, provided that does not break the EULA on some gambling clause. Which would be hilarious, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Criteria for winning needs a bit more time for thought than I have over lunch today. It should be plausible that both parties can win the bet in their lifetime, else there is little point in betting :D For me to win there needs to be some sufficiently strong evidence that wormholes do exist; this happening seems experimentally plausible in our lifetimes particularly given the results of the experiment we're discussing. For you to win is tricky since we must rule out the possibility of wormholes. We can do this by ruling out any hidden dimensions. I'm not sure how we can do that with near certainty, I think we'd need to settle for listing some problems with current theories and if they all get resolved satisfactorily without needing to invoke hidden dimensions we give you the win.

But since in that scenario you might win the bet and still be shown to be wrong later, maybe the bet is better just done with a time limit, ie. I lose the bet if in X years time there is no sufficiently strong evidence that wormholes exist. Then the bet is something slightly different, but it at least can't go unsettled for centuries :D
 
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Nice thread. :)
Anyway, people tend to forget some important facts. Our knowledge about the universe is based on some assumptions we considered to be true. More than that, the theory we have atm fails to explain a lot of what happens in real life, so the need for dark mater to hold things together is there. It may be there. It may not. Is a theory.

I do think it probably is an error in the way the experiment was done. This is not the case. The problem is that the scientists today tend to be more religious about their believes than priests in some churches. Much like Einstein did when quantum physic was discovered. "God does not play dice".

However, a real scientist must be ready in any moment to accept that all that is known about the universe and all science is false and a way of explaining must be there that was never considered. In other words, to have an open mind. Be ready to go wherever reality points.

There are many theories that are accepted as laws, even tho are not proven. Most common is Darwin theory. Einstein was proven right so many times is considered law already. But it may just be a special case. And light speed may just not be the highest in Universe. Even tho a lot points us in that direction.

There is no Truth - Truth is an absolute, this Universe is Relative. Science does not make this mistake...you can have faith in theory but should not believe it.

Darwinism (Natural Selection) is as misunderstood as Relativity - there is no criteria of 'fittest' which applies to a changing environment. The currency of Evolution is adaptability, afforded through diversity, born as multiple different individuals. Life is a single code (DNA) programmed by it's environment...they are not distinct.

c is a threshold, not an absolute (see above) - when energy reaches a threshold it manifests as a Fundamental Force i.e Photon emission.

Philosophically, I would say that 'the Universe is Infinitely Bounded', and Science has just reached an improved approximate measurement...squaring the circle, as is it's want.:rolleyes:
 
It may just be what all wise men said all along... by knowing yourself and you will know universe. It could be a huge fractal and all the laws in physics are just some aspects that result at various scales. And if it is a fractal, any point is this point, so there is no maximum speed because the observer can only change the scale to reach another place. So instant change of position would work. Ofc, no one can prove that, but this can become a theory, and if people start to believe in it, is hard to prove it wrong...
I would love to see the results of people who will verify the data of the experiment, and if it is proved to be accurate, how science will explain it.

Neutrino moving in another dimention would imply that our space/time is folded in itself on a higher dimension for something like that to happen, and if it is that so, then space/time has not the same properties everywhere, meaning all science is based on some bad assumptions. We all like to do math in a space that is the same in every point and each point has same properties.
 
So when my windup watch slows way down, so does time.

Hell no - read what i wrote!
My point is that you cannot be sure if your watch slowed down or time changed pace.

The example is very bad though, because you took a setup where you can verify the results by simply looking at it (which makes you the second measuring device - doesn't change a thing though, you could be off too.)

Ok, we're done. No reason to go any further with this. :wave:

Yeah, i am nuts, and try to tell you things that cannot be understood, because they simply make no sense

or

You're just trying to make it look like that because it's too embarassing when you fail to understand yet again...

:scratch2: you seem to be questioning the validity of all empirical observation based science. any instruments of measurement can be checked with calibration or the experiment reset and retested, or having other groups carry out the experiement to rule out instrument problems.

I try to make JC understand that by measuring something you set a relation between two entities (at least i hoped we could progress there once he understood the simple introduction) - and if that relation changes, it could be both things that are off, and you are not able to tell which.
 
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Lacking Favour

It may just be what all wise men said all along... by knowing yourself and you will know universe. It could be a huge fractal and all the laws in physics are just some aspects that result at various scales. And if it is a fractal, any point is this point, so there is no maximum speed because the observer can only change the scale to reach another place. So instant change of position would work. Ofc, no one can prove that, but this can become a theory, and if people start to believe in it, is hard to prove it wrong...
I would love to see the results of people who will verify the data of the experiment, and if it is proved to be accurate, how science will explain it.

Neutrino moving in another dimention would imply that our space/time is folded in itself on a higher dimension for something like that to happen, and if it is that so, then space/time has not the same properties everywhere, meaning all science is based on some bad assumptions. We all like to do math in a space that is the same in every point and each point has same properties.

Einstein's theory stems from an abandonment of a 'preferential reference frame' as alluded to in your fractal analogy, however human experience is Classical (Newtonian), therefore it is a non-intuitive framework - it has been approximated (excepting down to the threshold of ghostly neutrinos) for circa 100 yrs.

I don't like other dimensions, I prefer to consider it a question of magnitude....does a Russian doll have 5 dimensions?
 
Couple of new articles on this:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...tops-hunting-higgs-starts-neutrino-quest.html

and this one that is locked to members only:

Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article...-neutrinos-point-to-new-physical-reality.html

28322901.jpg

'Light-speed' neutrinos point to new physical reality



SUBATOMIC particles have broken the universe's fundamental speed limit, or so it was reported last week. The speed of light is the ultimate limit on travel in the universe, and the basis for Einstein's special theory of relativity, so if the finding stands up to scrutiny, does it spell the end for physics as we know it? The reality is less simplistic and far more interesting.
"People were saying this means Einstein is wrong," says physicist Heinrich Päs of the Technical University of Dortmund in Germany. "But that's not really correct."
Instead, the result could be the first evidence for a reality built out of extra dimensions. Future historians of science may regard it not as the moment we abandoned Einstein and broke physics, but rather as the point at which our view of space vastly expanded, from three dimensions to four, or more.
"This may be a physics revolution," says Thomas Weiler at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee, who has devised theories built on extra dimensions. "The famous words 'paradigm shift' are used too often and tritely, but they might be relevant."
The subatomic particles - neutrinos - seem to have zipped faster than light from CERN, near Geneva, Switzerland, to the OPERA detector at the Gran Sasso lab near L'Aquila, Italy. It's a conceptually simple result: neutrinos making the 730-kilometre journey arrived 60 nanoseconds earlier than they would have if they were travelling at light speed. And it relies on three seemingly simple measurements, says Dario Autiero of the Institute of Nuclear Physics in Lyon, France, a member of the OPERA collaboration: the distance between the labs, the time the neutrinos left CERN, and the time they arrived at Gran Sasso.
But actually measuring those times and distances to the accuracy needed to detect nanosecond differences is no easy task. The OPERA collaboration spent three years chasing down every source of error they could imagine (see illustration) before Autiero made the result public in a seminar at CERN on 23 September.
Physicists grilled Autiero for an hour after his talk to ensure the team had considered details like the curvature of the Earth, the tidal effects of the moon and the general relativistic effects of having two clocks at different heights (gravity slows time so a clock closer to Earth's surface runs a tiny bit slower).
They were impressed. "I want to congratulate you on this extremely beautiful experiment," said Nobel laureate Samuel Ting of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology after Autiero's talk. "The experiment is very carefully done, and the systematic error carefully checked."
Most physicists still expect some sort of experimental error to crop up and explain the anomaly, mainly because it contravenes the incredibly successful law of special relativity which holds that the speed of light is a constant that no object can exceed. The theory also leads to the famous equation E = mc2.
Hotly anticipated are results from other neutrino detectors, including T2K in Japan and MINOS at Fermilab in Illinois, which will run similar experiments and confirm the results or rule them out (see "Fermilab stops hunting Higgs, starts neutrino quest").
In 2007, the MINOS experiment searched for faster-than-light neutrinos but didn't see anything statistically significant. The team plans to reanalyse its data and upgrade the detector's stopwatch. "These are the kind of things that we have to follow through, and make sure that our prejudices don't get in the way of discovering something truly fantastic," says Stephen Parke of Fermilab.
In the meantime, suggests Sandip Pakvasa of the University of Hawaii, let's suppose the OPERA result is real. If the experiment is tested and replicated and the only explanation is faster-than-light neutrinos, is E = mc2 done for?
Not necessarily. In 2006, Pakvasa, Päs and Weiler came up with a model that allows certain particles to break the cosmic speed limit while leaving special relativity intact. "One can, if not rescue Einstein, at least leave him valid," Weiler says.
The trick is to send neutrinos on a shortcut through a fourth, thus-far-unobserved dimension of space, reducing the distance they have to travel. Then the neutrinos wouldn't have to outstrip light to reach their destination in the observed time.
In such a universe, the particles and forces we are familiar with are anchored to a four-dimensional membrane, or "brane", with three dimensions of space and one of time. Crucially, the brane floats in a higher dimensional space-time called the bulk, which we are normally completely oblivious to.
The fantastic success of special relativity up to now, plus other cosmological observations, have led physicists to think that the brane might be flat, like a sheet of paper. Quantum fluctuations could make it ripple and roll like the surface of the ocean, Weiler says. Then, if neutrinos can break free of the brane, they might get from one point on it to another by dashing through the bulk, like a flying fish taking a shortcut between the waves (see illustration).


This model is attractive because it offers a way out of one of the biggest theoretical problems posed by the OPERA result: busting the apparent speed limit set by neutrinos detected pouring from a supernova in 1987.
As stars explode in a supernova, most of their energy streams out as neutrinos. These particles hardly ever interact with matter (see "Neutrinos: Everything you need to know"). That means they should escape the star almost immediately, while photons of light will take about 3 hours. In 1987, trillions of neutrinos arrived at Earth 3 hours before the dying star's light caught up. If the neutrinos were travelling as fast as those going from CERN to OPERA, they should have arrived in 1982.
OPERA's neutrinos were about 1000 times as energetic as the supernova's neutrinos, though. And Pakvasa and colleagues' model calls for neutrinos with a specific energy that makes them prefer tunnelling through the bulk to travelling along the brane. If that energy is around 20 gigaelectronvolts - and the team don't yet know that it is - "then you expect large effects in the OPERA region, and small effects at the supernova energies," Pakvasa says. He and Päs are meeting next week to work out the details.
The flying fish shortcut isn't available to all particles. In the language of string theory, a mathematical model some physicists hope will lead to a comprehensive "theory of everything", most particles are represented by tiny vibrating strings whose ends are permanently stuck to the brane. One of the only exceptions is the theoretical "sterile neutrino", represented by a closed loop of string. These are also the only type of neutrino thought capable of escaping the brane.
Neutrinos are known to switch back and forth between their three observed types (electron, muon and tau neutrinos), and OPERA was originally designed to detect these shifts. In Pakvasa's model, the muon neutrinos produced at CERN could have transformed to sterile neutrinos mid-flight, made a short hop through the bulk, and then switched back to muon before reappearing on the brane.
So if OPERA's results hold up, they could provide support for the existence of sterile neutrinos, extra dimensions and perhaps string theory. Such theories could also explain why gravity is so weak compared with the other fundamental forces. The theoretical particles that mediate gravity, known as gravitons, may also be closed loops of string that leak off into the bulk. "If, in the end, nobody sees anything wrong and other people reproduce OPERA's results, then I think it's evidence for string theory, in that string theory is what makes extra dimensions credible in the first place," Weiler says.
Meanwhile, alternative theories are likely to abound. Weiler expects papers to appear in a matter of days or weeks.
Even if relativity is pushed aside, Einstein has worked so well for so long that he will never really go away. At worst, relativity will turn out to work for most of the universe but not all, just as Newton's mechanics work until things get extremely large or small. "The fact that Einstein has worked for 106 years means he'll always be there, either as the right answer or a low-energy effective theory," Weiler says.
 
Thanks Stave, interesting.

Although I hope the first diagram isn't suggesting the neutrinos travelled along the surface of the Earth.
 
Beep Beep

Thanks Stave, interesting.

Although I hope the first diagram isn't suggesting the neutrinos travelled along the surface of the Earth.

'fraid so, however it's not easy to hit a planet with a neutrino...never mind a barn door. Probably fired them at head height too...that's evil genius for you :eek:
 
Well .. How's it going? ... Star Trek was right? Warp speed is possible? It can bend space to reach speeds greater than that of light? The man can know the universe in a single existence? ... Or we're just fooling around? :scratch2::scratch2:
 
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