a 30000$ mistake

[Traf Rellik]

Are you suggesting ma could say .. no your mistake?

(which I think it is, as ghastly as it is)

If you are, how could that news be deliverd in a nicer approach?

No, I was going along the lines of "Yes, you screwed yourself royally here, but we'll take pity on you and share the misfortune."

But nicer -- I don't do typically do nice very well.

 

[GoNi]

My purpose was simply get to the bottom of the matter which actually is a man who lost hell lot of money (real money, not virtual) in game, which supposed to be entertainment.
Entropia is A GAME, it has nothing common with real life, so all your comparisons to real life are of no avail.
[/qoute]

EU is not a game, its a Universe.
Its much more than a game, and if someone lose big in this universe its mainly his own fault.

Everybody should learn the basics about EU first!

Entertainment may become very expencive at some point.

 

[dj.]

No, I was going along the lines of "Yes, you screwed yourself royally here

Ok, bad time to laugh, sorry

Traf is funny, he just doesnt know it lol

 

[merrin]

That's a loss of a fucking life or several hundred lives.
You were the one to say 'oh what a tragedy' in your post previous - I was just showing what an ACTUAL tragedy is .. mmmkay.
I wasn't trying to 'belittle' his loss at all but it's not a g'damn tragedy - as you say - it's a game for fuck's sake.

Now I can see clearly that I was right You're trying to convince us that your definition of word "tragedy" is the only right and I'm saying that it's all relative. When Squall write here "Ok, I feel bad with it but it's no tragedy" I'll agree with you but atm I feel that he may consider it as tragedy.
And we all know that this discussion is not about game but about money.

Never play with what you can't afford to lose.

I could tell you about so many things people (also you) playing with and can't afford to lose it that we should create separate topic about this. But I think it's so pointless

Bye

 

[DanielleYourMom]

I could tell you about so many things people (also you) playing with and can't afford to lose it that we should create separate topic about this. But I think it's so pointless

Bye

Oh yes great wise one - please tell me something that I have in my gaming inventory that I can't afford to lose.

$30k is a lot to lose - but if he couldn't afford to lose it - he shouldn't have played with it. Just as if someone crafting can't afford to lose that $5k he's putting into the machine daily - he should stay away from the machines.
Just as loaning things without collateral and getting fucked.
If you can't afford to lose it - don't invest that much $ or don't loan it out.
Simple as that.

Regarding the concept of the word tragedy - apparently you equate losing a life/lives to the same type of loss as if you were losing a buncha money.
Glad you're not in my real life as I value the people around me a lot more than I value money.

Sorry for the hijack, Jeff - I couldn't resist.

 

[E.K.x]

Everytime you post in the thread, Lootius kills a chirpy.

Lets wait for an outcome.

 

[Sunab Naverith]

I totally agree - the UL oa 105 should have had a golden body, like the LR32 gun.

All unique items should look totally separate from their counterparts.

Maybe now MA will do something like that - to avoid such a fiasco in the future.
Maaaayyybee ..

How about an option to color weapons/items? It doesn't HAVE to be visible to other avatars, just simply coloring them (f. ex.) Deep Cadmium would give them that golden appearance in your inventory, and would make it stand out like a sore thumb.

On that same note, I'd bet that there IS a method of altering the textures/colors on a clients files... but I'd bet if it was found out, it's also against the EULA or some such relevant shit...

 

[DanielleYourMom]

Everytime you post in the thread, Lootius kills a chirpy.

Lets wait for an outcome.

OH THE TRAGEDY !! SAVE THE CHIRPIES !!!

I agree - can't wait to see what happens.

 

[Traf Rellik]

Ok, bad time to laugh, sorry

Traf is funny, he just doesnt know it lol

The humor was a bright spot that I occasionally let slip into my posts. Actually I always try for a little humor when the subject supports it.

This one is a little tougher than most.

I was going to try to segway into a joke about a banker, a lawyer and a programmer... but it *just* missed the window of opportunity here.

So in lieu of more humor I'll add some random smileys:

+ =
+ =
+ + =

er... they were meant to be random -- I don't think they came out that way though...

 

[Sunab Naverith]

Ehm... Hell no.

You seriously underestimate the human ability to screw up

Make and claim something is idiot proof, I'll show you a better idiot.
~Anonymous

 

[dj.]

The humor was a bright spot that I occasionally let slip into my posts. Actually I always try for a little humor when the subject supports it.

This one is a little tougher than most.

I was going to try to segway into a joke about a banker, a lawyer and a programmer... but it *just* missed the window of opportunity here.

So in lieu of more humor I'll add some random smileys:

+ =
+ =
+ + =

er... they were meant to be random -- I don't think they came out that way though...

HAHAHHAHHAA RANDOM MY A$S!!

oops caps

 

[Tosi]

How about an option to color weapons/items? It doesn't HAVE to be visible to other avatars, just simply coloring them (f. ex.) Deep Cadmium would give them that golden appearance in your inventory, and would make it stand out like a sore thumb.

On that same note, I'd bet that there IS a method of altering the textures/colors on a clients files... but I'd bet if it was found out, it's also against the EULA or some such relevant shit...

Coloring MM & ModFap @ the boxes - FOR FREE!

 

[Sunab Naverith]

Coloring MM & ModFap @ the boxes - FOR FREE!

Ya, just thought of that - just let someone do it themselves with yellow paint, easy to max and can achieve the same color scheme for personal organization. Again, suggesting that ONLY THE CLIENT can see it - no need to be running around with graffiti-streamed armor/guns/gear just so we don't accidentally TT them.

 

[Xander Catman]

Things might be looking up for Mr Squal

After reading this entire thread the other day I thought I would ask MA directly and see what they had to say - of course I know they won't discuss a particular situation involving anyone but myself - but their reply might shine a glimmer of hope for mr Joe Jeff...

***********************************
18 Aug 2008 Entropia Support:
Hello,

As you might know, the support department cannot discuss details regarding other accounts than your own. What we can say, however, is that if it is decided to change a policy, it will be changed for everyone and not for one single user.
************************************

Interesting Keep your fingers crossed there Jeffy... and everyone else

 

[MindStar9]

I just knew ... that there would be a post that I agree with 100% ... and this is it. I really feel for Squall, but the critical thinking presented in this post says it all for me ... MA is in between a rock and a hard place, and will not be able to please everyone ... therefore, without prejudice or ill thoughts toward Squall whatsoever (even though it would be nice for him to have his amp back), I think the only consideration for MA would be to stand by the change they made with VU 9.0, but ... it's clear that no matter what they do, they'll be damned if they do and damned if they don't. However, I think more respect will be garnered if they follow their own dictates, not to mention that if they didn't, it would open up an even bigger can of worms.

I truly feel for you Squall ... but I also feel that we need to be diligent in our interactions with virtual possessions, as we do with RL possessions ... especially when they are of such value. If MA gives the amp back, or makes a concession, then there are several others who will expect the same with regard to what they may have lost by "not paying attention" ... and that would be a huge mess ... not to mention extremely time-consuming. Several interesting suggestions have been made that might be options, but at the end of the day ... my guess is, that MA won't give consideration to them.

Either way ... I wish you well Squall, and somehow, I hope this all works out to not be as Calypso-shattering as it appears to be by the contents of this thread. Good Luck!

Yes, we do have a basic disaggreement here.

Losing a lot of money on a game is his reality, no pun intended. The investment he made is very real. His action was very real. The loss is very real. And it's all very straight up his responsibility. To say that this doesn't have anything in common with real life is rather naive. He earns his real life income in this game. That makes it more real to him than any game I've ever played was to me. If it were me, I'd treat it more real, too; but it wasn't me so I can't tell how real he thought it was before he pressed the confirmation button.

However, I'm fairly confident that my real life comparisons are VERY relavant here. In my real world job earning real world income, you run the risk of losing that income in any single act of stupidity. That analogy alone is sufficient for most reasonable people to understand the connection between EU and the real world money they have in it.

There will always be those like you that see the "game" aspect of this as being pertinent. Because this is a "game" you should be able to write MA and ask for a do-over on any aspect that goes wrong for you?!? No. Because this is a game you should invest your life's savings and gamble it away haphazardly? No. People still try though. It's tragic, but very, very real.

It's as real as the money it represents, and that is exactly why the rules must be held constant for all players and everyone must be held responsible for their own actions. I am not belittling his loss, I am emphasizing it. It was large enough for him to have not "played" with it absentmindedly. It was large enough to show that people who gamble big can lose big even when the gamble wasn't based on odds.

One last real world analogy: what he did was not unlike taking a bag full of cash and leaving it careless about on his desk at work. You wouldn't normally expect it to disappear, but if you treat anything worth a lot of money carelessly you stand to lose it regardless of the assumed risk.

Gratz to him if he gets it back. Gratz to us all if he doesn't, because then MA has affirmed their stance that policy affects us all equally and fairly and in the long run this is better.

Oh, and ... interesting post there Xander ... maybe MA is giving some considerable thought to this situation not only for Squall, but for others as well ... although, I don't know how they would handle past issues of this sort.

As an afterthought:

I can say however ... that I too have experienced lag glitches in the past while interacting with the TT ... and while what I lost wasn't of much value ... the potential to inadvertently drag something to the TT and think you put it back into your inventory is there ... because as we all know ... appearances at times aren't exactly what they seem to be ... and not just as it relates to terminal interactions. However, I also realize that what transpired here wasn't of this nature, but rather more a situation of not being diligent in the second step of the process (or so it seems by Squall's post), and therefore, something entirely different from what I mentioned here ... I just wanted to bring it up because I know of others who lost stuff this way.




***

 

[Rayne Jade]

...As you might know, the support department cannot discuss details regarding other accounts than your own. What we can say, however, is that if it is decided to change a policy, it will be changed for everyone and not for one single user...

I seriously doubt the bolded part, and it does not bother me. Most any large business would act different for the most valued customers. I know if I had invested $30,000 USD I would expect a little red-carpet treatment Otherwise, what's the point? Look back at when there were LandAreas in the auction from Marcus Callander... or CND or Treasure Island were for sale... I certainly would not invest unless I knew for certain I would be given some special consideration should there be problems.

Someone else said already... either here or in another thread (so damn many now ) ... Squall probably screwed it all up when this thread was made. Had all this happened behind the scenes MA would probably give give it back. Now the spotlight is on them and they are now forced to endure the wrath of the community no matter which decision is made.

 

[Kaiser]

Wow, I am about to get flamed like no tomorrow, while I feel for you and can not imagine how I would feel if I had done something like this, I have to ask,


WTF WAS A 300,000PED ITEM EVEN DOING IN INVENTORY WHEN YOU WENT TO A TT? Even when I had an adjusted FAP which is worth a LOT less than that amp I always made sure I put it in storage EVERY time I would access a TT that way there is no way in hell this could happen to it. If there was no storage where I was I would always have it equipped.

This is especially important, when you are crafting TT items that look EXACTLY the same as an uber item.

That being said, I hope this serves as a prime example of what I have said in EVERY lost item post I have read, like MS9 said, you MUST treat your virtual posessions with the same respect you treat real world posessions. Primarily because they are worth REAL money.

I have mixed emotions about this, while I would love to see you get this item back, that would certainly NOT be fair to people who have endured the same thing with no compensation. I think it would be an unbelievable negative statement about MA's attitude towards its customers. MA giving this item back will once and for all prove that "big money" players get preferential treatment. You can argue whether or not this is sound business practice.

In all honesty, it is NOT a sound business practice. It is not one time big investors that keep entropia going, it is the collective of small players and big players alike. I am absolutely certain that the constant influx of money from the collective people who have NOT invested thousands upon thousands of dollars far outweighs those of us who have.

IMHO, MA needs to learn that the collective "small guy" IS their biggest investor.

 

[EarlVonKippler]

Wow, I am about to get flamed like no tomorrow, while I feel for you and can not imagine how I would feel if I had done something like this, I have to ask,

WTF WAS A 300,000PED ITEM EVEN DOING IN INVENTORY WHEN YOU WENT TO A TT? Even when I had an adjusted FAP which is worth a LOT less than that amp I always made sure I put it in storage EVERY time I would access a TT that way there is no way in hell this could happen to it. If there was no storage where I was I would always have ti equipped.

my exact question indeed. but i think in this case he was out at an outpost, at least that was my understanding. no storage nearby. but all the excuses are just that. too tired, too drink, too far to town, etc. mistakes suck.

 

[The_Distant_one]

whilst I can only dream of having a 30K item I have to say that if MA gives this back it sets a BAD precedent!!!!!!

What about those 4 104's I tt'd for a player like me those items are now worth mega bucks.

Its like if I go to the casino and I accidently put down my $200 chip instean of the $20 dollar chip... I lose and then realise crap I have put the wrong thing down. The casino says "tuff luck you need to be mroe careful" (I tell you this cause it happened to me once).

All this should be now is a lesson to ALL players... if you have items that you dont want TT'd be VERY VERY careful.

but I agree with the people that say you screwed yaself by posting this in the biggest community of EU players.... and I will be very surprised if Marco doesnt come back with a reply quoting the EULA anything else is suicide for MA.

 

[~CHOPPER~]

From MA..
*All items accidentally TT'd 20 minutes before and 20 minutes after jeff accidentally TT'd his amp, will be returned*

Click >sarcasism mode off>

 

[Uvas]

A $30,000 mistake revisited.

I offer this post as a bit of hope to the guy who lost his uber amp.

There is another game that has a real world cash economy with a very similar EULA to EU. It states that everything belongs to the company, they may close your account for any reason they see fit, or for no reason at all! It states you have no recourse to their decision, blah blah blah. You get the idea.

Now, one particular individual discovered an exploit in it's land auction system and was able to purchase land far below market value, which he then sold for market value, racking in substantial amounts of money. I would say they are fairly similar to the amp's worth.

When said company found out about this, they locked his account and confisticated his ill gotten gains, pointing to relevent areas of their EULA.

The gentleman, noting the large amount of real money involved, got himself some legal representation, and sued said company for his financial losses. The result of the case was that the gentleman was fully reimbursed.

Now this gentleman won his case, even after exploiting the software and in face of the EULA.

So, someone who lost $30,000 through a small clicking error who be in an infinitely better legal position to regain their loss than the above mentioned hacker.

I have read alot in these forums about how and when items should be returned. Some say always, some say never, some say for only items worth a certain amount or above.

EU could easily return items over the value, say, that most people would consider taking them to court over. It may not be fair to most people as they don't own items worth that much, but that is how the real world works.

EU will return this item, unless the individual really doesn't care about losing $30,000.

 

[Dr.D.C.]

until here all ok, and i have np to EU give back the item to squall. The point is: why squall start a thread in EF about?. I can understand if he started a tread about:
1)Ma is really bad they give not back my item
2)Ma is really good they give me back my item

but start a discussion in EF before to know the EU answer.... it s

 

[Uvas]

I agree, he should not have made this public.

I think he was hysterical about his loss and not thinking clearly. Which would be fairly easy to do over such an amount of money.

 

[E.K.x]

I knew for certain I would be given some special consideration should there be problems.

But there isnt a problem, with what MA provided.

They have had in place a confirmation and that should be enough, i know and can understand that it becomes a psychosis with the TT but still.

 

[Auktuma]

Losing a lot of money on a game is his reality, no pun intended. The investment he made is very real. His action was very real. The loss is very real. And it's all very straight up his responsibility. To say that this doesn't have anything in common with real life is rather naive. He earns his real life income in this game. That makes it more real to him than any game I've ever played was to me. If it were me, I'd treat it more real, too; but it wasn't me so I can't tell how real he thought it was before he pressed the confirmation button.

However, I'm fairly confident that my real life comparisons are VERY relavant here. In my real world job earning real world income, you run the risk of losing that income in any single act of stupidity. That analogy alone is sufficient for most reasonable people to understand the connection between EU and the real world money they have in it.

There will always be those like you that see the "game" aspect of this as being pertinent. Because this is a "game" you should be able to write MA and ask for a do-over on any aspect that goes wrong for you?!? No. Because this is a game you should invest your life's savings and gamble it away haphazardly? No. People still try though. It's tragic, but very, very real.

It's as real as the money it represents, and that is exactly why the rules must be held constant for all players and everyone must be held responsible for their own actions. I am not belittling his loss, I am emphasizing it. It was large enough for him to have not "played" with it absentmindedly. It was large enough to show that people who gamble big can lose big even when the gamble wasn't based on odds.

One last real world analogy: what he did was not unlike taking a bag full of cash and leaving it careless about on his desk at work. You wouldn't normally expect it to disappear, but if you treat anything worth a lot of money carelessly you stand to lose it regardless of the assumed risk.

Gratz to him if he gets it back. Gratz to us all if he doesn't, because then MA has affirmed their stance that policy affects us all equally and fairly and in the long run this is better.

I agree with you, Traf Rellik, well said. You have touched main aspects. EU isn't a game. There are rules. We are responsible for our actions. MA warned us not once. Why we should get thinking rules not applicable to us? Are we equal? What will be cost to support to solve all loss cases since Nov 2007? (we all pay for their time; we will loose their time what could go to solve our very recent support cases - it will get delay). Could we/ should we pay the price?
And probably not so significant but one more aspect of the situation - why 30k USD? Who defined market on it? What was the basis? How long Squall you had it on use? What part of initial investment been restored over that time?

Anyhow, sad to hear about that loss, Squall, man. And sad part even it's virtual but it is still reality We should be careful all the time.
Please, man, do not hesitate to accept my friendly donation of 2k peds.

/auk

 

[Kaiser]

I wonder if MA is ocnsidering giving it back to him and telling him keep your mouth shut and claim you are using (L) ones? there are quite a few unethical ways MA could give it back and none of us would be the wiser.

 

[thoreau]

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2007/10...ond-life-settle-lawsuit-over-virtual-property

A good read.

 

[Gandolf]

Some issues with the thread I have are:

1--you claim he was fully reimbursed yet you don't know that--the terms of the settlement were kept quiet and divulging them by either party can potentially void the settlement, HOWEVER it would NOT void out his agreement to drop the case and relinquish any wrongdoing by the gaming company.

2--This was an American suing an American company using American courts.

3--Jeff is from France and EU is in Sweden-by accepting the EULA MA is NOT bound by any laws other than Sweden's. Jeff would have to fight the battle out in Swedish courts and that is not up to "interpretation" like the EULA MIGHT be, it is international law.

4--The last point I wish to make is that these are totally different situations. Jeff made the mistake, he admitted to it in public. If MA does not return the item they are simply following a very well published and documented policy they have in place to deal with this EXACT situation. The incident you refer to was unique in that they had no policy in place to follow for that type of situation-they do now-they made it up as they went along and THAT is the hurdle they faced in court.

 

[~CHOPPER~]

until here all ok, and i have np to EU give back the item to squall. The point is: why squall start a thread in EF about?. I can understand if he started a tread about:
1)Ma is really bad they give not back my item
2)Ma is really good they give me back my item

but start a discussion in EF before to know the EU answer.... it s

We have not seen a post from Jeff in 2 days now
Could he already have it back?

 

[The_Distant_one]

I wonder if MA is ocnsidering giving it back to him and telling him keep your mouth shut and claim you are using (L) ones? there are quite a few unethical ways MA could give it back and none of us would be the wiser.

tht wouldnt surprise me... it would be the way I'd deal with it... or I'd send him an email saying something like

"hi

unfortunatly we cant givce your item back, but then again who knows what you may loot if you mine west of orthos etc in about 5 months"

and jsut wait for this to die down.... then give it back to him thath way