Developer-Notes--2

I have a classic example of this, i was condition crafting, lost a lot of tt, then went to normal crafting and got a compensation hof for the condition stuff

...

Ace, come on.... if it was a "compensation", why would it happen after you changed the input variables? How can you know the hof would not have happened even if you continued crafting on condition? How can you know if crafting on normal would not have prevented the loss of tt that preceded it?

What is clear is that your return changed after you changed your behaviour... that I can agree is a valid conclusion, but to assume the two sets of behaviour are linked is a flawed assumption, in my opinion.
 
Ace, come on.... if it was a "compensation", why would it happen after you changed the input variables? How can you know the hof would not have happened even if you continued crafting on condition? How can you know if crafting on normal would not have prevented the loss of tt that preceded it?

What is clear is that your return changed after you changed your behaviour... that I can agree is a valid conclusion, but to assume the two sets of behaviour are linked is a flawed assumption, in my opinion.

After craft on full-cond - switching on full quantity = HOF - standard.
After badstreak in planetary mining - switching to FOMA/HELL - almost instant HOF or uber-hof - standard.
Amp going to it's end - and run was abnormally bad - in the last 10 drops "emergency TT return" - big claims, globals, hofs - standard.
Crafting run on quantity - abnormally low TT return - at 10 last clicks - "emergency TT return global" - standard.
After badassly bad return - first drop on next day - HOF - standard.
Bad run with lvl7-lvl8 amps - switching to lvl3 - compensations almost instant - standard.
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All above clearly seen when you're in "normal" phase of returns. Runs not bad, and not good. Currently I have nice garcen HOF - 87 ped on my tracker. Just 17x lvl5s amps was needed for it, planetary.

I have shitloads of personal evidences about clearly "compensation" hits.
 
Ace, come on.... if it was a "compensation", why would it happen after you changed the input variables? How can you know the hof would not have happened even if you continued crafting on condition? How can you know if crafting on normal would not have prevented the loss of tt that preceded it?

What is clear is that your return changed after you changed your behaviour... that I can agree is a valid conclusion, but to assume the two sets of behaviour are linked is a flawed assumption, in my opinion.

I completely agree it is a flawed assumption, definitely no proof anywhere that says i would/wouldnt have got it anyway.

I don't like drawing conclusions, but when it happens a lot, something is going on.

I remember many occasions (around a year ago) i would go condition craftion, lose a lot on tt, then go mining unamped and hit a 1ker +. Again i know presumption is the mother of all fuck ups, and i by no means use this as my PE career. But its hard to turn a blind eye to it, when it happens frequently

It is purely observations, and i understand there is no statistical cause and effect here.

For the past 4 years in PE, i have treated the game as a challange to profit. And using minimal mu in vs max markup out is the way to go. (and recording all tt results, currently sitting at 96%). I was just pointing this out as an inquisitive/interesting observation, in light of MA's announcement

Rgds

Ace
 
Anyone remember the global Haxtor moogle had?
The servers went down, the ammo was reverted and the stuff from the global was gone as he logged back in - and then he had a global of exactly the same size, just as if the system decided he is due.

Good memory.

But "just as if the system decided he was due" is only one possible explanation. At the time I seem to remember we saw it as evidence in favour of the now unpopular "the loot is in the mob" theory.
 
Good memory.

But "just as if the system decided he was due" is only one possible explanation. At the time I seem to remember we saw it as evidence in favour of the now unpopular "the loot is in the mob" theory.

ah "the multiplier is in the mob/ground" theory is one i have a hard time letting go :p
 
Good memory.

But "just as if the system decided he was due" is only one possible explanation.

it could just mean the conditions were changed back to the ones that caused the global before the reset. If it's based on an algo. of weapon, skill, location, mob or even if it's a lookup table based on a mob then it would have given him the same global.

Well, if we allow the term "due" we must conclude that this is based on certain conditions.

If these "conditions" were only server based (time and fill level of the loot pool maybe), it would be logical if someone got this global. If the same person hits it, it seems very likely that there are avatar related things involved.

This doesn't really prove that they track losses, but it shows that there are some kind of avatar based variables involved.

However, if one simply pays a attention to return rates during a mining run, you will find that loot is always around the same percentiles (for both, with and without global).

I'd love to know though why MA thinks that my "efficiency" went down with more skills....
 
ah "the multiplier is in the mob/ground" theory is one i have a hard time letting go :p

uh, the loot IS in the mob, at least according to Neverdie Studios... of course, whether there is a 'multiplier' in the mob is something that cannot really be 'proven' although some statment from MA a while back indicated that loot is determined at time of looting, not before, so it might be possible?

The planet partner, if I read this right does not control the amount of the loot in tt value for any one avatar looting at any given time, etc., but they do control what mob carries what loot.

http://www.neverdie.com/neverdie-studio-news/6817-may-20011-q.html
19. Once and for all who determines items that drop in RT/NI loot is it MA or NDS (For example if you wanted to add A-3 punisher MKII to drop from Forum trolls is it you guys or MA who would add this)
We determine which Mobs drop which items, that is essential for game design, we don't control how or when, so we can't predict when something will drop

In cases like "scannergate", it seems that if there is only a small handful of mobs in any one area in game which will loot some item, such as a certain type of scanner, etc., it might be possible to utilize that type of info if it was obtained prior to the vu that the change to put that loot in that particular type of mob happened, and just camp that mob til it drops whatever it is that the hunter is looking for, etc. Not saying that's what happened at any point in time, but that it could potentially happen, if it has not happened in the past?... That particular type of "monopoly" issue is worse now than it ever was in the past since the planet system now exists, seggregating different places and mob types by space, etc.
 
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I don't wanna get into arguments, i thought i'd help clarify. People seem to like to find one little part of an argument and go off on it disregarding anything of value i may have said. Ok, there's a PHYSICAL way to plug in a random event, likely MA used hardware generators...

It's not exactly smart when you start a post with "real programmers do this and that" and then post something that shows you don't know what they do.

There is as little proof that they don't use TRUE RNGs as for the opposite.
All they ever said about loot does hint that they appear to maintain loot on a single, separate server - a network architecture that very well supports the use of RNG hardware.

Nobody but MA themselves can make a statement about whether they use them or not - puzzles me a bit that you tried giving a
nonetheless.


I meant strictly using lines of code and no special hardware, ok?

Because MA is not allowed to buy special hardware?
You know what people say about "assume"...

I apologize if i wasn't as precise as some would like. I only tried to give a most likely scenario and the way i see it, all signs so far I've seen pointed to things being this way and fits most other odd phenomena people report all the time. I'll try to back off a bit and let people evolve their own ideas i guess, i'm a bit tired of getting singled out anyways.

No need to apologize, just try to make an effort to distinguish between your own opinion and something that is valid on a global scale - the difference is probably huge and does in no way help to clarify things: It makes them worse.


Well to be fair that is a recent arrival in consumer hardware.

Actually, no.

When did the first internet casino open up?
I don't have an exact date, but it was for sure BEFORE this:

It certainly wasn't a given back when EU was developed.

And, we have no evidence whatsoever that MA didn't change it to true RNGs later, even if they were too costly or something back then.


/Edit:

I.e. look here: http://www.random.org/

They are offering true random numbers for free since 1998.

Ok, the server is run by the Trinity College in Dublin, but how many years later was EU created again?
 
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uh, the loot IS in the mob, at least according to Neverdie Studios...

The planet partner, if I read this right does not control the amount of the loot in tt value for any one avatar looting at any given time, etc., but they do control what mob carries what loot.

http://www.neverdie.com/neverdie-studio-news/6817-may-20011-q.html

what neverdie is talking about is the "loot table", ie the list of items a mob can possibly loot, this is not the same as the opposite theories of "the multiplier is calculated when looting" vs "the multiplier is generated when spawning"
 
at 10 last clicks - "emergency TT return global" - standard.
After badassly bad return - first drop on next day - HOF - standard.

Those two are kinda opposing eachother, if one is standard the other one cannot also be standard. Framing bias is not a good argument in this discussion, but the observations seemed to match a natural law, that is you get 90% back in the long term, one way or another.

Unfortunately, as players grow up, they will invariably take newer and bigger challenges, as such, these come with bigger costs. As the majority of runs end in sub-average loots, thus the majority of the players will receive sub-average returns, it is actually true that attempting bigger mobs, blueprints or amps and not getting a decent loot will scar you for life should you not pass over that level again.

Some runs come up 40% back, some come back to 200%. But the median is below 80%, half the players will have the below 80% loots. This is an ever-present and impossible to remove cost of playing Entropia, you will always lose unless you stay at a certain level for a long period.

As many charts and logs have shown, there are several harmonics involved in loot curves available to a player at all times. A personal level, server level, global level, mob level, mineral level, etc. When these overlap with different frequencies and intensities the so called "waves" happen.

In no way a local wave is above or below average return by mathematic design, what happens instead is that local low variance gives consistent crap loot (60-100%) with no eventful loots but no major losses, while high variance loots give either 40% or 200% depending on your ... luck. If you loot the big one, it's a good return. If not, it's a bad return.

MA appears to explain that should you be statistically unlucky that you deposit thousands of peds and you always pick up the crap samples from those loot periods, you will never ever be compensated by the system for that. Should a player hit nice big loots by repeated chance, he will play for many years on community funds and enjoy all the funs.

This is what MA says.

The same MA that said one time that "advertisting, rents, auction fees and event costs" go into some kind of "pool" for "hofs and unusually large loots". This however has never been confirmed or observed, as it would mean that players get over 90% in the long term. And they don't.

Where does this money go? Where does the money from the "inefficient" players go? Surely you don't see it in loot. You can't play above perfect, and that only gets you a null result after markups.

Should you ever need to complain about bad runs, now you know, MA decided to never reimburse those and someone else might pick up the losses you got from your loots. On the other hand, if you loot something big, you're not worthy of other people's bad luck and hard earned money being awarded to you.
 
The three claims from the developer notes are:
  • there is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars
  • there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time
  • there is no system which provides compensation to individual avatars.

We can take these as facts, pretty much. But I thought it might be interesting to list some of the things that are not claimed:
  1. there is no claim that avatar expenditure is not tracked, and used in calculating future loots
  2. there is no claim that cost per looting is not tracked and used in calculating loots
  3. there is no claim that there isn't a system that "decompensates" people based on past loots (not necessarily returns)
  4. there is no claim that for avatars, returns from the professions are independent

And really, even more.
 
There are many mysterious "coincidences" in favour to thoose avatar based variables in regard to the loot pool, for example - Oldchool: Pham Pham Neven 3 ATH in one day hunting... 2 on cp and than he accidentaly shot a 5 diggit oculus down on planet?

just recently, last week if I remember correctly a crafter got 2 big 5 diggit hofs in one day, both on 1 and 2 of the hof list.

Is this all coincidence? I rly dont think so.

On the other hand: What arguments have convinced the sweden gambling regulating body not to see EU as another gambling platform? They must have shown them that there are certain mehanism which prevent it to be a game of chance, where you invest without knowing if your result is 0% of the investment or 1000% For most of the parts, people who PLAY EU as a game are experiencing exactly this: Miners investing 50 USD in a lvl 8 amped run on FOMA / Hell, and dont hit a claim in that run - return 0%, or hit a 15k PED alicenies unamped, 3.000.000% return. For me this is nothing more than gambling.

I apreciate MA finaly talking about in game mehanics which have been a mystery for all of as for the past decade, loot pool, personal loot pool etc. But I think we would be better off if there were some clearence from their side to "How to play the game without to gamble" ? Since, said loud and clear, most of the inovations we got since implementation of L gear were focused towards - Burning more TT in order to have a possibly larger return (Mining amps, quality - condition lever put in function, High lvl SIB guns with immense ammo burn, Million HP mobs, and now treasure hunting - Max possible expense 33 PED / klick with lvl 13 not considerring markup) which always looked for me like the "Max Bet" button on a video slot, which I actually loved to press the most....


To put a point to this response: We need clearence about SAFETY MECHANISMS in the game which prevent it to be a SLOT MASHINE, or fancy CASSINO - Since obviously MA must have had one if they still have their bussins licence. Which are they, and how to use them, what is the way to play the game without gambling, if there is any?
 
We need clearence about SAFETY MECHANISMS in the game which prevent it to be a SLOT MASHINE, or fancy CASSINO - Since obviously MA must have had one if they still have their bussins licence. Which are they, and how to use them, what is the way to play the game without gambling, if there is any?

FREE chat room. :rolleyes:
 
On the other hand: What arguments have convinced the sweden gambling regulating body not to see EU as another gambling platform?

Bribery?

:silly2:

Or maybe we will learn some day that Jan Welters brother is head of the swedish lotteriinspektionen?

:cool:
 
There are many mysterious "coincidences" in favour to thoose avatar based variables in regard to the loot pool, for example - Oldchool: Pham Pham Neven 3 ATH in one day hunting... 2 on cp and than he accidentaly shot a 5 diggit oculus down on planet?

just recently, last week if I remember correctly a crafter got 2 big 5 diggit hofs in one day, both on 1 and 2 of the hof list.

Is this all coincidence? I rly dont think so.

On the other hand: What arguments have convinced the sweden gambling regulating body not to see EU as another gambling platform? They must have shown them that there are certain mehanism which prevent it to be a game of chance, where you invest without knowing if your result is 0% of the investment or 1000% For most of the parts, people who PLAY EU as a game are experiencing exactly this: Miners investing 50 USD in a lvl 8 amped run on FOMA / Hell, and dont hit a claim in that run - return 0%, or hit a 15k PED alicenies unamped, 3.000.000% return. For me this is nothing more than gambling.

I apreciate MA finaly talking about in game mehanics which have been a mystery for all of as for the past decade, loot pool, personal loot pool etc. But I think we would be better off if there were some clearence from their side to "How to play the game without to gamble" ? Since, said loud and clear, most of the inovations we got since implementation of L gear were focused towards - Burning more TT in order to have a possibly larger return (Mining amps, quality - condition lever put in function, High lvl SIB guns with immense ammo burn, Million HP mobs, and now treasure hunting - Max possible expense 33 PED / klick with lvl 13 not considerring markup) which always looked for me like the "Max Bet" button on a video slot, which I actually loved to press the most....


To put a point to this response: We need clearence about SAFETY MECHANISMS in the game which prevent it to be a SLOT MASHINE, or fancy CASSINO - Since obviously MA must have had one if they still have their bussins licence. Which are they, and how to use them, what is the way to play the game without gambling, if there is any?
Double globals or Aths or double item drops have been happening since the beginning of time.I have had the double hit several times and not after i deposited.
As for the Swedish Gambling regulator it should be pointed out as a reminder that loot including large ATH's use to be paid out in gold clusters of shiny ped untill MA replaced the shiny gold clusters of ped with boring animal oils and skins and ammo excetera excetera.WHY THE CHANGE? Well the reasoning at the time was they were protecting themselves from those very gamling regulators.Your deposit is not for gambling to get nice golden balls of ped its for the opportunity to loot animal oil so you can craft stuff.:wtg:
 
Doing a 2 creature test... with a non maxed gun.. and an a106. Seriously you are the lifeblood of entropia and people should thank you.

Wow, yet another reason I stay away from this forum, people posting responses like this without a clue. If you'd taken the time to even READ what I posted, I said I was going to do a larger test with other gun too but was disgusted with it all. I also posted before but was mainly responding to Doer. So, if you'd read any of the posts before that you'd know what the WHOLE discussion was. I wasn't even trying to give any real data.

I think I've played this game long enough to have a DAMN good idea of what my miss rate is with any weapon.

drive through....
 
The three claims from the developer notes are:
  • there is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars
  • there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time
  • there is no system which provides compensation to individual avatars.

We can take these as facts, pretty much. But I thought it might be interesting to list some of the things that are not claimed:
  1. there is no claim that avatar expenditure is not tracked, and used in calculating future loots
  2. there is no claim that cost per looting is not tracked and used in calculating loots
  3. there is no claim that there isn't a system that "decompensates" people based on past loots (not necessarily returns)
  4. there is no claim that for avatars, returns from the professions are independent

And really, even more.

Actually "tracking returns" means tracking all the things you say there.
 
Wizzszz, I see you're stuck on the random number generator HARDWARE.... btw, hardware isn't software and i was simply talking programming. Sure u could also plug in a camera and use random variables taken in as images, use lottery numbers, weather, etc. None of these in my eyes are programming. You get an input from a piece of hardware from what i understand, not lines of code. I was talking using simply a computer and no outside sources, such as a 3rd party or hardware, but i see you simply want to mock me and have little valid argument. I doubt very much u think they use hardware number generators, i think u just like to argue tbh. Talking points. I have little respect for this type of discourse. Not actually trying to get to a solution, just trying to slam me, not very well i may add. You seem like a frustrated type :p

PS. You proved my idea of getting stuck on one point and ignoring all the valid arguments> the way i described the system would explain how they decide who gets, and how much. A random number generator would... give random numbers, ok, now build on it, give the system as u see it within the number generator hardware. If u have a valid argument that they use em, then make the argument already. If not, ur just trying to be a dick towards me.
 
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sorry wrong thread:(
 
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I will add my 2 cents.. K there.. the next person who loots it, can come and thank me.. :laugh:

Translation... subscribing!! :tongue2:
 
{removed}

I have spoken to a few people that I truely respect in game, and they tell me that Chrome is a really nice person, with a great sense of humour. So I accept that on face value, and when I reread posts, I can see the subtle dry humour in Chromes replies.

In fact I apoligised soon after for being a little firm with my response.

I have said before that if I got it wrong I will say so, so give Chrome a chance, all is cool on my part.

Get out of the forum and go hunting.


Good luck.
Rick
 
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well after more a year of intense activities and deposits i started to beleve in personal lootpool , return were really nice last few weeks ( HoF and almost everything crafted on quantity , nice HoF on crafted stuff i use , even 2 tower with amp 9 i crafted ( the amp also Hofed )

then this post .........

and now i feel like playing this game when i started .. shit returns ... failed craft .. low returns

check my tracker and you will see a major difference between Before and After this Developer post
 
Good memory.

But "just as if the system decided he was due" is only one possible explanation. At the time I seem to remember we saw it as evidence in favour of the now unpopular "the loot is in the mob" theory.

And the wotif memories, being logged off within the recent event with 40 corpses at your heals. Upon relog receiving nothing.
Support cases submitted.....
 
The "all the ubers will sell out because of change X and the game will die" talk has been going on forever, but it is just that - talk.

Ubers probably can sell out gradually with no bigger harm for themselves, and some of them (who were big say 4 years ago and before) probably have already.

I got the feeling that most of the ubers, at least those who go for profit, are using economical equipment. They don't have to be told "use more efficient equipment ffs" - they don't need to look in auction for weaopns, faps and armor parts to use once/week (or even often to spot that odd Hermes (F,L) shoulderguard show up). All they need auction for is to get the markup of their looted items.

I don't think ubers fell into this trap, for their day-to-day hunt they don't have to resort to junk gear. It's just att odd occasions, for instance big events or for pk:ing at landgrab, they're using uneco gear; when it's not really a question of pure economy in that battle.

I just finished 1000 spiders, most of the final runs were done with HL14(L), SK-80(L) fap and Ghost armor. I'm fairly sure ubers doesn't have to pay markup on their handgun decay, fap decay and that they can use a slightly better armor so if getting attacked by 2-3 spiders at same time they don't have to fap like maniacs (while keep on shooting at first one) to stay alive. (Profit? Nah. I doubt the 106% I could get on heart oil would even cover armor decay).
 
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i been away from home, only just read this news now

I must admit i had it in good faith that part of my pervious losses will be returned to me one day as a nice big HOF. Thats me put in my place, im shocked and sad by this information.


Got me questioning why i play this game....AGAIN!!

To fucking expensive to play, and they dont even keep track of your losses, i am shocked :(
 
I must admit i had it in good faith that part of my pervious losses will be returned to me one day as a nice big HOF. Thats me put in my place, im shocked and sad by this information.

While I agree that the cost of play is often too high (been better for me lately), nothing in the dev note means you wont get some of the losses back at a later date. It simply says that the loot system will not actively push a HoF on you if you have a lost a bunch. Other "forces" may still affect this though.
 
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