Different solution to "Free to play"

[Stave]

That woudlnt fit in for uses like the thing and so on, which is genuinely free to play, as everything is provided for to play episode 1

Changing how it works like that would limit the possiblitys for the platforms uses.

 

[Sircus]

If EU had been as you suggest when I started, I would never have made an account. Instead I am still here over 5 years later.

This is a cheap shot and you know it. None of the guys/girls who quit due to the F2P model are here to say otherwise.
The model worked for me and you true. Also quite the difference starting 5 years ago or today neh?

That woudlnt fit in for uses like the thing and so on, which is genuinely free to play, as everything is provided for to play episode 1

Changing how it works like that would limit the possiblitys for the platforms uses.

I do confess that this is something completely new and I cant say good or bad longterm. It could be just what is needed to get people to deposit with the F2P model right? But you have to see that this is only limited for ND. What about new players to all the other PP´s? Or do you suggest they copy ND/Universal´s concept?

 

[shoti]

Regarding Entropia being free to play, I though about another suggestion. How about this;

You can dl for free and create an account. If you dont deposit after 30 days your character will be deleted. Amount to deposit is 100 ped. This will continue for 12 months. After that you wont have to deposit anymore and your character is what we have today. All players currently registered would count past the 12 months.

In many ways I thought this would be good. What do you think?

hey, maybe beter lets convince MA to make 5 kinds of accounts :
1lvl - can participate - 10$/year
2lvl - can global - 100$/year
3lvl - can HoF - 1000$/year
4lvlGOLD EDITION - posibility of geting ATH 10 000$/year
4lvlSILVER LOOTER EDITION - return rates in all activities increased +2% - 8 000 $/year

...please post other "great ideas" to MA if u have any

 

[Oleg]

This is a cheap shot and you know it. None of the guys/girls who quit due to the F2P model are here to say otherwise.

Why the hell would someone stay if they had to pay but quit because they didn't? Your idea just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Sircus]

Why the hell would someone stay if they had to pay but quit because they didn't? Your idea just doesn't make any sense.

Well, a common thing about the quiters is that they feel cheated. By being upfront they wouldnt feel cheated ergo not quit.

Simplified like hell, but to make sense.

 

[johan roadkill]

"you are free do do as you wish aslong it is to our liking"

i do not think the first people do in a free to play game is to put money in it thuse eliminating the free to play concept

so basicly you'd be kicking the ones who might concider paying a small sum after the first month where they feel they might have gone passed their depo limit

keeping people like danimal with just way too much cash and free time ( no offence )

and telling every1 that would be happy to sweat for cash the first month that they are not welcome here

now i guess all that would be okey if this game wasn't apalling in the way you spend peds faster then you can pay shots in a bar that just happened to have girls gone wild visiting

 

[Peezle]

For all you folks who say 'I would never play if I had to deposit', there are plenty who would appreciate the RCE concept and be willing, from the start, to pay to play - as they do in many other entertainment arenas.

Where the problems arise is when people feel they have been lied to, and those who deposit after sweating have still been conned.

No, the aim of the game is to attract and keep players, and for this to happen, honesty is the way to go. EU cannot survive or prosper on a lie, it can only struggle.

We don't want people who have no money... for god's sake, how much money do people spend on drugs, movies, DVDs, booze in a month?


It is OK to spend cash, and for those that complain... wakey wakey.

 

[steffel]

i don't see sense in trying to force people to deposit while they could withdraw it straight anyways (yea excl fees etc.)

there is a business model of "subscription", and the one of "micro transactions". EU is the latter, so there is no room for a subscription really.

 

[Joat]

I rather see features and gameplay that makes people depo due to they think
depos are worth it.

 

[Soradin]

Thanks for the compliment
Most people who dont like the game quits in less then 10 hours according to the reviews from gamesites.

Consider that only an extreme minority of gamers (based on account subscription levels vs. active members on message boards) actually post on forums.

Any statistic based on what one sees posted on a forum, is pretty much useless.


Just remember... 83% of statistcs on the internet are made up.

 

[Soradin]

The model worked for me and you true. Also quite the difference starting 5 years ago or today neh?

Yes...

Back then it was hardcore. You log in, and you're on your own. Period. Hope you run into some decent folks, or find these forums.

Now there are tutorials, lessons, missions... it's much easier now to start out than it was in 2005 when I started.

 

[Sircus]

Yes...

Back then it was hardcore. You log in, and you're on your own. Period. Hope you run into some decent folks, or find these forums.

Now there are tutorials, lessons, missions... it's much easier now to start out than it was in 2005 when I started.

It was cheaper to start and sweat prices were higher. The things you mention are true but they dont in any way say that the game is more F2P today then it was 5 years ago.(Exception "The Thing")
I was saying the game was more F2P 5 years ago then today.
Regarding the internet statistics, I dont know. From what I know about statistics is what 1 bothers to say, 100 think.

 

[Karmic]

Nobody play for free here.
Bills need to be paid.
So some ppl play on expenses of depositing participants and call that playing for free.

So? i wasn't born with any of the money i have, the money i get from work comes from someone else too.

to the OP: no thank you, it's nice to not have to pay $50 up front and $12-$15 a month if i log in or not.

 

[Jimmy B]

Just remember... 83% of statistcs on the internet are made up.

Yep, just like your 'extreme minority' line here:

Consider that only an extreme minority of gamers (based on account subscription levels vs. active members on message boards) actually post on forums.

I see this posted here fairly regularly, and yet I've never seen even a vague attempt to produce some evidence for it for EU.

When you consider that tracker generally has in the vicinity of 5000 distinct avatars globalling in a month, and the fact that this forum has had 1313 users online at one time (18/08/09 18:27), I would say 'extreme minority' is at the very least an extreme exaggeration.

For general gaming, yes, I can believe it. But for EU it is not the same, where real money is involved people tend to be a bit more keen on getting as much information as they can.

I'd imagine 10hrs is enough to get a pretty good idea of what EU is like. I quit Second Life in far less time than that.

 

[Dreganna]

When you consider that tracker generally has in the vicinity of 5000 distinct avatars globalling in a month, and the fact that this forum has had 1313 users online at one time (18/08/09 18:27), I would say 'extreme minority' is at the very least an extreme exaggeration.

I dunno, Jimmy. 1.3 on PCF of 5 who are globaling. Are all those 1.3 posting? Or are they just keeping tabs on the current threads? Even if all 1.3 comment on a particular issue, you're saying there are another 3.7 folks out there hunting/mining, but not contributing their opinion. I don't want 1.3 of 5 deciding what's best for me at any given time. Just over 1 in 5 certainly a minority, and not quite as extreme an exaggeration as you seem to be suggesting.

Meh, to each his own.

 

[Soradin]

Yep, just like your 'extreme minority' line here:

Last time I checked, the phrase "Extreme minority" wasn't a statistic. It is a generalization.

I also don't recall having specified Entropia specifically.

When you consider that tracker generally has in the vicinity of 5000 distinct avatars globalling in a month, and the fact that this forum has had 1313 users online at one time (18/08/09 18:27), I would say 'extreme minority' is at the very least an extreme exaggeration.

So, putting aside the fact that the post I was responding to wasn't even addressing PCF specifically. Let's go off on this tangent.

According to you, the tracker shows "in the vicinity of 5000" avatars global a month (I'll assume that's true). So, that means what exactly? The number of avatars that global is what percentage of active avatars in a given time period? Without that, any comparison is pretty worthless IMHO, unless you're saying only those that global matter.

I'm actually laughing at the fact that you decided to pull the user count from PCF the day V10 was being implemented so people were trying to find out the status. It's kind of like checking the population of Ithaca during the height of the Steel Birds, and saying that's the average population of Ithaca. People who may never have bothered with the forum before were probably here for that one day to find out the game status, again, just IMHO.

Even using your numbers, assuming EVERY AVATAR (or at least those that matter) globals once a month, and the number that were here on that one day in 2009 check the forum regularly and post, that's 26% of the user base that was online at a given moment on PCF. To me, that's an extreme minority upon which to base an opinion on behavior.

 

[Jimmy B]

Last time I checked, the phrase "Extreme minority" wasn't a statistic. It is a generalization.

A generalization of a statistic. A reasonable definition of "Extreme minority" could be perhaps "less than 1% of". Sounds like a statistic to me.

I also don't recall having specified Entropia specifically.

OK yes, I missed that, sorry.

According to you, the tracker shows "in the vicinity of 5000" avatars global a month (I'll assume that's true). So, that means what exactly? The number of avatars that global is what percentage of active avatars in a given time period? Without that, any comparison is pretty worthless IMHO, unless you're saying only those that global matter.

I guess it depends on what we're discussing. For purposes of an economic nature, I think you can pretty much argue that only users that global are relevant. Anyone else isn't cycling enough PED to have an impact on EU or MA. Excluding a handful of traders/LA owners/beauticians.

I'm actually laughing at the fact that you decided to pull the user count from PCF the day V10 was being implemented so people were trying to find out the status. It's kind of like checking the population of Ithaca during the height of the Steel Birds, and saying that's the average population of Ithaca. People who may never have bothered with the forum before were probably here for that one day to find out the game status, again, just IMHO.

Well, what we do know from that is 1300+ people were checking the forum simultaneously. How many other people were not? For the 5000 figure we have 1 month to gather that number, for the forum there were a quarter of those online in one moment. What caused that to happen hardly matters, are you telling me all those people discovered the forum in that moment? As far as I was aware the question being debated was what percentage of the playerbase post on forums, not what is the average number of players using a forum at any one time. To answer the first question, the historical maximum tells us more than the historical average.

Even using your numbers, assuming EVERY AVATAR (or at least those that matter) globals once a month, and the number that were here on that one day in 2009 check the forum regularly and post, that's 26% of the user base that was online at a given moment on PCF. To me, that's an extreme minority upon which to base an opinion on behavior.

No reasonable definition of 'extreme minority' would include anything nearly as high as 26%. 'Minority' would do just fine.

I dunno, Jimmy. 1.3 on PCF of 5 who are globaling. Are all those 1.3 posting? Or are they just keeping tabs on the current threads? Even if all 1.3 comment on a particular issue, you're saying there are another 3.7 folks out there hunting/mining, but not contributing their opinion. I don't want 1.3 of 5 deciding what's best for me at any given time. Just over 1 in 5 certainly a minority, and not quite as extreme an exaggeration as you seem to be suggesting.

Meh, to each his own.

Well, it was 1.3 of 5 that were online in one moment in time. So there will be plenty more who happened to be asleep/at work/doing something else and will visit the forum at another time. But yes, fair point, not all of them will be posting. Far from it I am sure.

I'm not suggesting those 1.3/5 should be deciding what is best for you. But I do think it would be folly to ignore the people who are actually giving feedback just on the basis that they are a minority. We can learn from their comments without assuming everyone shares the same opinion. Ignoring information on the basis that it is provided by a minority is as bad a statistical mistake as assuming that information to apply to everyone else too.

But we've digressed from the topic sorry. With regard to the point that started this up, how long people are claiming to play before quitting is only relevant to our part in the discussion - because it is the only information we have. MA will be the ones making any decisions, and they obviously have accurate relevant figures from their own records of players. So it's a fairly moot point in this case.

 

[Mariko Ninja]

Regarding Entropia being free to play, I though about another suggestion. How about this;

You can dl for free and create an account. If you dont deposit after 30 days your character will be deleted. Amount to deposit is 100 ped. This will continue for 12 months. After that you wont have to deposit anymore and your character is what we have today. All players currently registered would count past the 12 months.

In many ways I thought this would be good. What do you think?

No the game should stay free to play, as it is now. The reason why this is failing is Mindark.
They took or better FPC took the right step in creating the Calypso Gateway, also adding the puny mobs around Port Atlantis was a good step. Even though the sweat price is low, the new rooky gear is a lot cheaper to use. The missions also improved the game a lot for new players.

Only thing lacking are some more free activities for new players. How about collecting acid from snable.
Then use this in tiers for melee weapons, more damage maybe ?

The free to play concept works for other games, here it can work too, but I admit it’s tricky.
But it is only Mindark and the PP's who can make free to play really work.

I guess it depends on what we're discussing. For purposes of an economic nature, I think you can pretty much argue that only users that global are relevant. Anyone else isn't cycling enough PED to have an impact on EU or MA. Excluding a handful of traders/LA owners/beauticians.

I played over four years now and learned that only around 50% of the players that are cycling enough peds actually do global or hof. Many hunting, crafting, mining runs do not result in an global or hof. I estimate that from my four years, at least one year I didn’t global or Hof. Early this year I was in the top 100 hunters list,
57 I think it was. Then my globals disappeared even though I cycled many K’s of peds. Not the first time I hit a long period like this. And I bet many other players have such periods, even though they cycle enough peds.

My daughter started playing back in 2008. She did pretty good although she wasn’t every active. In the summer of 2010, her loot dropped a lot, she had for almost one year not one single global or hof, even though she cycled lots and lost around 15k peds. And I do know that there are many more players that suffered the same fate, especially the last two years.

Using tracker to estimate the number of active players, is a shot in the dark.
Same goes for the forum, loads of players never use this forum.

.

 

[Sircus]

No the game should stay free to play, as it is now. The reason why this is failing is Mindark.
They took or better FPC took the right step in creating the Calypso Gateway, also adding the puny mobs around Port Atlantis was a good step. Even though the sweat price is low, the new rooky gear is a lot cheaper to use. The missions also improved the game a lot for new players.

Only thing lacking are some more free activities for new players. How about collecting acid from snable.
Then use this in tiers for melee weapons, more damage maybe ?

The free to play concept works for other games, here it can work too, but I admit it’s tricky.
But it is only Mindark and the PP's who can make free to play really work.

Some really good points you have there regarding my post. It is probably cause I always use my own experience as reference. My suggestion wasnt a set in stone thing. Im glad I posted since many of you have so much good input.(+rep for ya) I still think F2P should be removed or seriously revamped since currently those things you pointed out hasn't made the difference/impact that we hoped for.

 

[Jimmy B]

Using tracker to estimate the number of active players, is a shot in the dark.

Same goes for the forum, loads of players never use this forum.

Both points are true, but it depends if we want an exact figure or a ballpark figure. For the latter we can make a pretty good guess using the information provided by things like tracker. If we needed a more accurate figure we could also do some polling of randomly selected avatars in-game to see, for instance, what percentage of people do not use they forums and extrapolate from there. But for many discussions here a rough ballpark is all we need.

 

[Sircus]

Both points are true, but it depends if we want an exact figure or a ballpark figure. For the latter we can make a pretty good guess using the information provided by things like tracker. If we needed a more accurate figure we could also do some polling of randomly selected avatars in-game to see, for instance, what percentage of people do not use they forums and extrapolate from there. But for many discussions here a rough ballpark is all we need.

Since they can predict the elections just by calling a few voters I totally believe that. Never really figured out how they do that. Magic in my eyes since it seems to work ^^

 

[johan roadkill]

Since they can predict the elections just by calling a few voters I totally believe that. Never really figured out how they do that. Magic in my eyes since it seems to work ^^

and a sqiud predicted football

 

[Xavier_Jr]

Nobody play for free here.
Bills need to be paid.
So some ppl play on expenses of depositing participants and call that playing for free.

hehe.. you are ok

 

[Xavier_Jr]

Using tracker to estimate the number of active players, is a shot in the dark.
Same goes for the forum, loads of players never use this forum.

.

Dear friend, if it is like you said, the situation of the game is worst than I believed.... I explain you... if there are, so many active players, .. and they never are compensated with globals or HOFs... one day they will bored and left the game....

If you have reason, then we have really problems...

I would like to know how many daily turnover are you considering to define a player as an active player?

 

[Jimmy B]

Since they can predict the elections just by calling a few voters I totally believe that. Never really figured out how they do that. Magic in my eyes since it seems to work ^^

Yes, it's a nice application of statistics. Done well it can be very revealing. It can't predict the exact results but the more people you sample the smaller the error margin.

Of course, it has to be done well.

For instance, the questions the poll asks must not bias the respondent one way or another (there's a great episode of Yes Minister or Yes Prime Minister where one of the characters ends up responding both against and in favour of conscription based on a different set of poll questions).

Also we must be able to judge the accuracy of the answers people give. People might deliberately lie, or unintentionally exaggerate their answers. I read a nice example of how you can deal with that from a poll investigating what drugs school children have taken, if any. They were afraid some children would lie and claim they had taken drugs when they hadn't, so they were also asked if they'd taken a plausible sounding but made up drug. Sure enough plenty said they had taken it, and this helped them assess what percentage of the respondents answered truthfully, and to correct the predictions accordingly.

And the sample of people polled must be truly random. This is one problem with just polling people about something on the forum for instance. We have then only sampled from the group of people who post on forums, and there may be something these people have in common with each other that non-forum posters don't share. So extrapolating from forum users to the entire player-base would be an error. Similar to polling only Londoners, and assuming the results will be representative of the whole of England.

 

[Mariko Ninja]

Both points are true, but it depends if we want an exact figure or a ballpark figure. For the latter we can make a pretty good guess using the information provided by things like tracker. If we needed a more accurate figure we could also do some polling of randomly selected avatars in-game to see, for instance, what percentage of people do not use they forums and extrapolate from there. But for many discussions here a rough ballpark is all we need.

Agreed.

Dear friend, if it is like you said, the situation of the game is worst than I believed.... I explain you... if there are, so many active players, .. and they never are compensated with globals or HOFs... one day they will bored and left the game....

If you have reason, then we have really problems...

I would like to know how many daily turnover are you considering to define a player as an active player?

Hi Xavier, when there are players that do not global or hof every run, that does not mean they lose a lot.
You can do very well even without global or a hof. Personally I had great hunts where I hit quit a few mini’s,
( a single loot that has an tt value of 20 to 49ped. ) and ended those hunt with a small profit.

There is no doubt that we have problems, but I still have enough trust that Mindark will be able to turn the tide. It looks to me they took the right step by bringing in a turnaround professional.



In case someone wonders what an turnaround professional is, here is a link.
Turnaround management

 

[Peezle]

The F2P concept is a deceit that needs to be taken out of the equation. Whatever uses it had to draw people in because of the 'no subscription' tag, I think it lost a lot more credibility and players than otherwise could have been gained. False economy.

Look at the reviews out there about EU - ripoff, casino, con. Many of those people didn't seem to play for very long before they hit the deposit wall and quit in disgust. The costs of F2P have always been too high.

Nobody wants it to be uber expensive, but a clean solution is to abolish sweating and make the game more fun for new players, and yes, they pay to begin with.

 

[Jimmy B]

Look at the reviews out there about EU - ripoff, casino, con.

Wherever gaming with real-money goes, this will follow I'm afraid. Same with poker sites, cash based skill-gaming sites, etc. Whether it is luck-based or skill-based, some people will lose money. And people don't like losing money.

 

[Arrun]

Let’s just take a step backwards here.

First off, just to confirm, Entropia is a game, ok?

…. and with Entropia, you’re free to play, free to stay, free to leave. It allows anyone to experience, at a shallow level, what Entropia is all about without paying for it up front.

If they like what they see, chances are they will stay and hopefully willingly invest in their future gameplay (called depositing). So content and delivery is everything – that takes investment by MA, using your (or investors) money.

If you want to play a game on a PC, it’s going to cost you up front.

My son goes and buys CoD or Battlefield3 or whatever for his Xbox – he doesn’t expect it to be for free.

You could argue that after paying to play the single-player game story he then gets the multiplayer online style whenever he wants for free.

But the game doesn’t develop or change - he only ever gets what he first paid for.

However, then the next release comes out whereupon he buys that etc etc. So, a constant cycling of funds is started

This is what allows developers to build the games we play – by taking punters money. And by taking the money they make their game better and better, release by release (in theory) so making more people want to buy and play it.

And Entropia does that by allowing you to try it for free first – in the belief that you’ll like what you see, stay and then invest.

Everything depends upon content, enjoyment and perceived value for money – if a player has a positive perspective then hopefully they will deposit, if not they will leave. But if staying in the shallows is good for you – then stay and enjoy it for free but accept the self-imposed limitations you have chosen.

Entropia is a game, an entertainment (and a business) - something there to be (hopefully) enjoyed by all the thousands who play it or who may want to play it, in whatever way they want to play it.

If you want to go see a film, it’s going to cost you. But the studios take your money and make another film for you. It’s entertainment and all ‘manufactured’ entertainment costs you something.

We should not expect better graphics, better gameplay or more involving content for free

My take is that the Entropia approach is the right one. Try it for free and if you like it, invest as much or as little extra as you want or are able.

If you like what you see (for free) in a film trailer, you go pay to see the film.

You like what you find in Entropia (for free)………..

Yes, perhaps the F2P message has been wrongly presented by MA so players leave when they realize it’s not really free to play long term and in depth at all. Such expectations should be set up front.

But, personally, I don’t want players who don’t deposit – they get all the benefits, the results of development work etc, paid for by those that do. And if nobody paid, there’d be no game!

Scenario time - an avatar, with no depositing at all, after, say, 5 years, decides to quit the game and sells all his skills and items and withdraws the resulting 50k peds. Where has been the benefit or investment for MA – and therefore, the benefit to the rest of us as players? MA has just lost $5000 off it's bottom line, how's it going to get it back?

It takes real money to make Entropia grow, not peds.

 

[johan roadkill]

Let’s just take a step backwards here.

First off, just to confirm, Entropia is a game, ok?

seems your never read the ToU

2. Description
MindArk provides the Entropia Universe as a service, described as a virtual universe. The Entropia Universe is not a "game".

this is also the wierd part

seeing as it is a service you pay for and you accept a contract that in no way benefits or protects the players

this is what swedish consumers rights say:

Avtalsvillkorslagen
Det är förbjudet att använda avtalsvillkor som ensidigt gynnar säljaren på konsumentens bekostnad. Det kan till exempel gälla oskäliga villkor i köpe- och uthyrningskontrakt, eller i garantier och beställningssedlar

law of terms of agreement.
it is prohibited to practise terms of agreements that one-sided benefits the provider on the cost of the consumer/customer. This could for example involve brute terms regarding purchase and renting contracts or guarantees and order slips.

10. Governing Law
This Agreement is to be governed by, construed and enforced according to the laws of Sweden. You agree that any future dispute that might arise between you and MindArk is to be governed by the laws of Sweden and that any principles of conflicts of laws will not be applicable with regards to this Agreement.

roughly translated

not only does it definitly put us the consumers in a bind where if something where to go wrong we have no rights or sayings but also the guarantees or getting any thing at all back are very shady and even if you where to get the maximum back you are only entitled to what you depoed the last 6 months

MindArk's failure to perform any term or condition of this Agreement as a result of conditions beyond its control such as, but not limited to, war, strikes, fires, floods, acts of God, governmental restrictions, power failures, or damage or destruction of any network facilities or servers, shall not be deemed a breach of this Agreement.

i tried finding the yor are only entitled to 6months deposites part but simply can't arse myself to read through it again


anyway most likely you wont get shit no matter what MA does i've brought all of this up b4

Questions about MA
questions about the ToU

15. Changes to the System
MindArk may, at any time, update, revise or change the internal data and balancing of the System, without any notice or responsibility for compensation due to loss or gain of value due to these changes.