I' m gonna cry... I was distracted and sold 10 CL Deeds for 500 ped

"I am suing you for being ugly"
They might hear it, but you won't be winning any cases. That's 100% certain.
Until someone actually takes MA to court, it's all just talk that means nothing.

There was a case in China where that happened..sued his wife for being ugly..Kinda funny actually..

One player did threaten to bring MA to court... Now we can get back accidentally TT'd items (for a fee)

With virtual items being worth so much.. mark my words..it will eventually happen..
 
But the point is that it has not happened.
That's the point that was being made regarding taking MA to court...
So until it has happened, it's just assumptions and big talk.

That's the point.
 
ofcourse he can't link anything, because there's never been a case to link to, idiot. So it's YOU who is the one who has to prove something here, post your proof or stop posting .

You totally missed the point...

Reading is fundamental..., too bad you can't
 
But the point is that it has not happened.
That's the point.
So until it has happened, it's just assumptions and big talk.

That's the point.

Again.. you totally missed the point... noob
 
wow you're terrible at communication...

No, You suck at comprehension

Ninjaboy made the assertion that the courts would not hear a case regarding virtual items.

I said they would. That's a simple fact of the legal system.

You back on track yet?? :scratch2:
 
Question is, in what country would they drag them to a court?
 
Typical response of someone grasping at straws... ofcourse he can't link anything, because there's never been a case to link to, idiot. So it's YOU who is the one who has to prove something here, post your proof or stop posting ad hominem bs.

I was going to write the same thing, but cocker is a few cards short of a full deck so it's pointless. Just leave the troll alone.
 
The case in China occurred because the person had a child that looked nothing like either parent. It was hideous by all standards.

Come to find out after doing extensive research, this persons partner had massive amounts of cosmetic surgery. The person rightfully sued since that was not disclosed, and they felt betrayed. On those grounds they won.

They did not win because the person was ugly. They won because they were lied to.

Back to the EU situation we have here, nobody was lied to. There is no fraud. There is simply a lapse in judgement. We all do stupid things. Do we all get to roll back the clock now?
 
by popular request

Here is the response for those who asked:


Hello,

Thank you for your report.

We fully understand your frustration, but unfortunately there is not much we can help you with in this matter. You should always carefully read the confirmation message that you receive before you accept the sell as the system will warn you before the transaction is completed so we can not take anything that was sold at auction.

Thank you for your understanding.

Kind regards,
Eddie | Planet Calypso Support
 
i had one person over bid on item i had place on auction by over 6k ped i was not even registered to this site

ma contacted me by email that there was someone looking for me on here

so when i saw what happen i return the peds back

the only problem whit this yes it was under sold by alot but if ma get into this and reverse the trade

some poeple may abuse this after sell low oh i think i could have got more let complain and reverse the trade

if i baught the cld i would return the cld to the person but it up to the person to do it
 
are you trying to say that by law the trade should be reversed ?


what do you think , you sell a lambourgini for say 1000 dollar ,,, but then after you sold it you think Oooooh nooo i want 100000 for it so you go to look him up and say ,, huh sorry but i changhed my mind i want it back and then sell it 100000 and according to swedish law i can do that ......or that it should be normal that it can be reversed by the auction compagny where it got sold after the seller agreed to the 1000 dollar sel price ?????

You obviously dont read the thread before you post because thats EXACTLY WHAT EBAY DID WHEN SOMEONE SOLD A BENTLEY FOR 14K. They cancelled it after the bidder won.
 
This is true; no court is going to hear a case over something like this. Once you put your money into EU and it's converted into PEDs, whatever happens inside EU in terms of financial transactions will not be heard by any court. Even if you did a trade with someone and wrote up a legal contract, and the other person failed to return the item back to you, or something akin to that, It'd be very unlikely that any court is going to hear a case over virtual items.

If some people are so hard set on their point that lawsuits can be filed over cases such as this, then go ahead and post some case law to prove your point. Otherwise, stop talking out of your you know what.



Typical response of someone grasping at straws... ofcourse he can't link anything, because there's never been a case to link to, idiot. So it's YOU who is the one who has to prove something here, post your proof or stop posting ad hominem bs.


When I get to the office on Monday I will link more and will be able to pull up any published opinions.

Bragg v. Linden Research

Here is an easy to read article.... http://news.cnet.com/Virtual-world-litigation-for-real/2010-1047_3-6190583.html

http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/12/28/chinese-gamer-sues/ Here's another one in China.

So I think you 2 are the ones spewing BS.
 
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You obviously dont read the thread before you post because thats EXACTLY WHAT EBAY DID WHEN SOMEONE SOLD A BENTLEY FOR 14K. They cancelled it after the bidder won.

had they taken possession? legal position changes then i believe, certainly ebay as the auction house wouldnt be able to cancel or reverse anything and you'd have to go through the courts. what ebay is able to do with in the bounds of its house is not what the same action as available under the law.

in our little virtual world, possession is transfered immediately. i say possession, our virtual possession of course because we dont "own" the item eitherway. so saying in court an item you dont own was transfered to someone else for too few virtual currency you dont own is going to be a tough sell.

the case raised with Linden Labs above is with the company, so thats quite different to our situation here. is there any examples of avatars sueing other avatars in vitual worlds? also, bear in mind case law in one country doesnt mean anything in another, so a US or Chinese case doesnt mean anything regarding a Swedish court would do.
 
now you want them to pay compensation? i assume you must have misunderstood the example. the "buyer" is the one that got the cheap deeds through the error. A, B and C are all traders buying/selling at or around market rates. they are all innocent parties to the original situation.

I don't understand your point.

If the deeds went from person A to B, and then from B to C. And if C knew nothing about what happened in the trade from A to B. Then C is "innocent" and shouldn't be harmed (ie he should keep his deeds).

Since the deeds stay with C, then B will have to compensate A financially for the loss as I explained in my post (because you can't introduce new deeds).
If B had not yet sold the deeds to C, then of course the first trade could simply be reversed.

are you trying to say that by law the trade should be reversed ?

do you actually know how a auction works ?
a auction is bind when some one placed a bid , in this case it was even a buy out.
there for the seller must deliver what he/she sold even if it was for 5 cent's.

what do you think , you sell a lambourgini for say 1000 dollar ,,, but then after you sold it you think Oooooh nooo i want 100000 for it so you go to look him up and say ,, huh sorry but i changhed my mind i want it back and then sell it 100000 and according to swedish law i can do that ......or that it should be normal that it can be reversed by the auction compagny where it got sold after the seller agreed to the 1000 dollar sel price ?????

The fact is, there is very little precedent on this.

What I do is interpret the law. I already provided my source and explained my thoughts. Perhaps, if you're so sure I am wrong, you can actually provide some shred of information to support your claim. Instead of just acting like an overheated flamethrower.

in our little virtual world, possession is transfered immediately. i say possession, our virtual possession of course because we dont "own" the item eitherway. so saying in court an item you dont own was transfered to someone else for too few virtual currency you dont own is going to be a tough sell.

I'd just like to point out that I'm speaking of what I think is fair. Not what what I think will happen. As I said before, I think Entropia is insecure because of this.
 
I don't understand your point.

If the deeds went from person A to B, and then from B to C. And if C knew nothing about what happened in the trade from A to B. Then C is "innocent" and shouldn't be harmed (ie he should keep his deeds).

Since the deeds stay with C, then B will have to compensate A financially for the loss as I explained in my post (because you can't introduce new deeds).
If B had not yet sold the deeds to C, then of course the first trade could simply be reversed.

the buyer X (to avoid confusion) has brought some super cheap deeds at 1/10th price. he then relists or sells in the street for around market (bit less to shift 'em), 5 each to A and B. i can only imagine you got mixed up by suggesting B should compensate A for this. you say A and B should return the deeds. however C has some of the deeds brought off B. why on earth should C not have to return their deeds if A and B do? seems that introduces an easy way to evade any trade reversal policy too. the point of this discussion proves very well the confusion and complexity of simply saying "reverse the trades".
 
No, You suck at comprehension

Ninjaboy made the assertion that the courts would not hear a case regarding virtual items.

I said they would. That's a simple fact of the legal system.

You back on track yet?? :scratch2:

Todd Fox Burgess calling his lawer

TFB: "Hello, i want to sue an individual"
L: "Okey, what is the case?"
TFN: "The person took advantage of a mistake i did"
L: "Oh, okey. What kind of mistake?"
TFN: "I sold an virtual item for virtual money for a much lower price than the market price in EU"

L: "??. EU... you mean the European Union? It's an European case? Which country? But the Euro it's not a virtual currency, it's a real currency."
TFN: "No, Entropia Universe, and it use peds as an currency"
L: " ????. Ah... it's a kind of game? Like World of Warcraft? My son plays that a lot. So what is the name of the person you want to sue? "
TFN: "I don't know"
L: "You don't know the name of person you want to sue?"

TFN: "No. But i know the person plays, and have an avatar, in EU."
L: "So...what the name of the avatar?"
TFN: "I don't know"
L: "Eh... you don't know?"
TFN: "No"

L: "Okey. Let's summarize the case. You want to sue a unknown individual that have an avatar, with a name you don't know, in a game called Entropia Universe, because of unlucky mistake you did that cost you a lot of peds?"
TFN: "Yes"
L: "Just pay my fees and i will see what i can do about it"

:silly2:
 
i had one person over bid on item i had place on auction by over 6k ped i was not even registered to this site

ma contacted me by email that there was someone looking for me on here

so when i saw what happen i return the peds back

the only problem whit this yes it was under sold by alot but if ma get into this and reverse the trade

some poeple may abuse this after sell low oh i think i could have got more let complain and reverse the trade

if i baught the cld i would return the cld to the person but it up to the person to do it

Either this guy is trolling. Or MA did, once help in a mistaken auction. So they can't do it for Todd too?
 
bah, well I wouldn't of given it back. It's a shame you made such a mistake, but these mistakes happen in RL all the time. As they say, all trades are final.
 
So today another auction mistake was made.

Some genius (literally), put 1 CLD on auction for 12000 BO. If you read that and thought it's a good deal, then you would have fallen for the trap too :)...

Wirlo bought out the deed thinking it was 1200. THE SELLER REFUNDED.

And everyone in Twins went wild :p. Suprrisingly this thread wasn't mentioned, but the arguments made in Twins were similar to this thread.

Anyway, I believe MA should at least give Todd the chance to contact the buyer of his 10 CLDs.

There's like a double-standard. If someone buys at the wrong price on auction, they can contact the seller and get a refund, and each and every time, there's always a refund (or most of the time?) Just like that Mr. Infinity Infinity auction with no BO... he was nice enough to refund, and there was a thread on forum.

Now, if someone SELLS on auction, the buyer is anonymous. That is the major reason why when the SELLER makes a mistake, there's most likely no refund.

This is an unfair double-standard that MA should rectify. I believe that in Todd's case, they should at least allow him to contact the seller via proxy or directly, so that he may get the same benefit as BUYERS WHO BUY BY ACCIDENT.
 
Mindark say 'all trades are final' but as a community I don't think we should sink to that level.

OK there are individuals in here who would callously take advantage of a guy's unlucky or careless mistake but be it on their own conscience rather than letting them cop out by reiterating some convenient small-print disclaimer.

As a community I think we all should try to set an example by choosing to take the fair and just action in these circumstances (ie. contact the seller and return the deeds or whatever items are involved).
 
Mindark say 'all trades are final' but as a community I don't think we should sink to that level.

OK there are individuals in here who would callously take advantage of a guy's unlucky or careless mistake but be it on their own conscience rather than letting them cop out by reiterating some convenient small-print disclaimer.

As a community I think we all should try to set an example by choosing to take the fair and just action in these circumstances (ie. contact the seller and return the deeds or whatever items are involved).

I think this is a very valid way of looking at these situations. I would wager that many folks who consider Entropia to be a non-game would adopt this view. If EU is seen as a dimension of the real world, in-world morals are likely to be adopted quite directly from real world morals.

The folks who view Entropia as a game may or may not agree. There are many possible goals in the game. Some colonists chase only skills. Some strive to profit. Some are here for the 3-D chat capabilities. Some players are keenly aware that EU is a competitive game. Some don't care so much. Depending on one's goal(s) in the game, their current bank roll/skills, their strategy, their perceived reputation, etc., it could be viewed as a GAME PLAY MISTAKE to abstain from capitalizing on a good deal such as this. It may be morally wrong, neutral, or right, in that person's conscience; I would not claim to know which, but if the trade is NOT morally wrong, it could very easily be pragmatically wrong to reverse such a trade (or abstain from accepting the offer in the first place), in the same way that shooting the air is a pragmatically wrong way to play eco.

We generally play games to the best of our abilities, within the rules. There is no set way to win EU, but there are ways to achieve our personally set goals that may be more effective than other ways. I can't help feeling that the way some folks go off on certain rule-abiding activities, such as pirating, is parallel to walking into a Monopoly tournament and going off on an opponent who gains an advantage over others by bidding on a property that you declined to purchase; your justification of course being that your friends don't play the game that way.

Make no mistake, there are most certainly in world morals. Borrowing an items from someone with the agreement to return it, and then refusing to do so, may not get MindArk pounding on your door due to All Trades Are Final (ATAF), but one would have to work hard to convince me that such lying is mere role play. On the other hand, most actions performed outside of the chat window, such as shooting a person in the Twin ring, ARE role play, and do not necessarily reflect real world morals.

I think it is more difficult to discuss these situations than people believe. Even assuming all folks gladly obey their own conscience, the morality of a lot of these major issues seems, to me, to draw back to how people perceive the world of Entropia.
 
When I get to the office on Monday I will link more and will be able to pull up any published opinions.

Bragg v. Linden Research

Here is an easy to read article.... http://news.cnet.com/Virtual-world-litigation-for-real/2010-1047_3-6190583.html

http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/12/28/chinese-gamer-sues/ Here's another one in China.

So I think you 2 are the ones spewing BS.

First off, this link you posted references to a case where the plaintiff is suing for $300 dollars. This is small potatoes (small claims court). Secondly, it's not case law, but an article from 6 years ago which doesn't inform the reader about the final judgement. There's also this part of the article I read which significantly differs from the terms and conditions set about in EU, and vastly differs from the situation which arose which was the catalyst of this whole thread:

"Setting itself apart from other creators and operators of virtual worlds, Linden announced in late 2003 that it would recognize full intellectual property protection for the digital content created and owned by participants in Second Life."

Let me know if you can post some real cases involving high dollar amounts where the plaintiff won. Yes, the judge in Pennsylvania said the EULA wasn't valid because it was written as a contract of adhesion, being presented on a take-it-or-leave it basis. Judges can be stupid and make mistakes. It's still a frivolous suit if you ask me, however, because this is a suit over services and not property.
 
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Happy to see not way to much changed since last time i visited.
 
First off, this link you posted references to a case where the plaintiff is suing for $300 dollars. This is small potatoes (small claims court). Secondly, it's not case law, but an article from 6 years ago which doesn't inform the reader about the final judgement. There's also this part of the article I read which significantly differs from the terms and conditions set about in EU, and vastly differs from the situation which arose which was the catalyst of this whole thread:

"Setting itself apart from other creators and operators of virtual worlds, Linden announced in late 2003 that it would recognize full intellectual property protection for the digital content created and owned by participants in Second Life."

Let me know if you can post some real cases involving high dollar amounts where the plaintiff won. Yes, the judge in Pennsylvania said the EULA wasn't valid because it was written as a contract of adhesion, being presented on a take-it-or-leave it basis. Judges can be stupid and make mistakes. It's still a frivolous suit if you ask me, however, because this is a suit over services and not property.



Yeah that's why I said I will do it Monday where I have access to the opinions (if they are published). Anyhow I know its distinguishable from the current situation. I linked it to rebut the statements that "no one has ever filed a lawsuit over virtual property" that so many people had been spewing. The most important thing I was trying to point out is that courts (not all) may entertain cases based on virtual property, obviously that is the biggest hurdle any plaintiff would face if they ever chose to file.
 
the buyer X (to avoid confusion) has brought some super cheap deeds at 1/10th price. he then relists or sells in the street for around market (bit less to shift 'em), 5 each to A and B. i can only imagine you got mixed up by suggesting B should compensate A for this. you say A and B should return the deeds. however C has some of the deeds brought off B. why on earth should C not have to return their deeds if A and B do? seems that introduces an easy way to evade any trade reversal policy too. the point of this discussion proves very well the confusion and complexity of simply saying "reverse the trades".

Ok, I went back to look at your post that I quoted initially. I see where the confusion is coming from.

My "A-B-C" is the whole chain, with A being the TS, B being whoever bought them off of auction and C (D, E etc) being whoever B sold to. Complying with your way of naming them however, my previous post would have read;

"If the deeds went from the original owner (TS) to X, and then from X to A and B (he sold to two people). And if A and B knew nothing about what happened in the trade from TS to X. Then both A and B are "innocent" and shouldn't be harmed (ie he should keep his deeds).

Since the deeds stay with A and B, then X will have to compensate TS financially for the loss as I explained in my post (because you can't introduce new deeds).
If X had not yet sold the deeds, then of course the first trade could simply be reversed (the deeds returned to TS and the money, paid by X to TS, returned to X)."

Honestly, I don't think there is any complexity to speak of. The reason A and B should not lose their deeds is that they have done nothing wrong, they bought the deeds in good faith.

The reason X has to compensate TS is because he clearly bought the deeds in bad faith. (You might argue that he didn't know the value of the deeds. Sure that's a possibility, but highly unlikely.)
 
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