Kim, seriously...?

Wollongong

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As CLD were introduced, I had a bad thought for a moment. I thought for a while that perhaps you guys would inflate payouts untill the final CLD was sold.

Now, the CLD are all sold and... wow...payout drops. Seriously?

Please, provide me some reassurance that my distrust from the beginning period is unfounded and that this drop of income is indeed a coincidence...
 

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next week is cyrene... going to be much worse I think
 

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Can be a coincidence. but those are my feelings from start, trend will be to go down down. weird part is, with som many events on weekend one of the lowest payouts
 

aridash

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As CLD were introduced, I had a bad thought for a moment. I thought for a while that perhaps you guys would inflate payouts untill the final CLD was sold.

Now, the CLD are all sold and... wow...payout drops. Seriously?

Please, provide me some reassurance that my distrust from the beginning period is unfounded and that this drop of income is indeed a coincidence...
you may have noticed a rush for people to buy them in the secondary market, hence pushing the value upto ~1200. thats going to give general revenue a hangover. i'd wait a couple or four weeks (allow for the next pay cheque cycle) to see if its a change to trend.
 

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buying deeds leaves no money to gamble with, decreased revenue is a natural effect of this.
 

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From the CLD Q&A:
Q. How often will revenue share payments be made?
A. Revenue share payments will be made weekly, calculated based on the Planet Partner Gross Revenue generated by Planet Calypso during the preceding week.
I've seen nothing yet to suggest that 'during the preceding week' includes the weekend immediately before the payout.

It may, for example, be from the close-of-business on one Friday to close-of-business on the following Friday. Or possibly even Thursday to Thursday, like some payrolls are.

Personally, I find it difficult to believe the revenue cycle would be from midnight Sunday to midnight Sunday, MA time, ie immediately before payout, without the relevant financial people having an opportunity to review and sign off on the calculations.
 

Art Jennifer

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Ok, lets put it this way.

You knew what they were when you brought them.
expected ROI 30% or what ever


Cryene coming out if successful, will see CLD drop in price as well as a less weekly pay out.

This is why I laugh at anyone buying at 1200ped, when in 2-3 weeks time I guarantee you, ( if cryene is half decent) the price will be below 1000ped, thus making the ROI go back up.
 

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buying deeds leaves no money to gamble with, decreased revenue is a natural effect of this.

So, only CLD-owners is the source of revenue only? Also, tracker fortune-tellers always thinking that those numbers directly affecting revenue, cuz of some "activity". I think, amount of noobs, decaying and not/rarely globalling is simply underestimated. Moreover, I think, activity of "invisible" noobs is MAIN income of revenue.

Tracker. Oh yes. Nice 140k narc ATH, followed by 33k fat uber - percents in mining "hoffage" just skyrocketed. What? Those hits caused big decay?

Also, making decisions on weekly "trend" - is the same stupid habit as judging mining runs. "oh my gawd, five level5 amps without a global, my run is bad, baaaaaad, they ripping me off, i'm quit!"

Clearly was stated: 27%-30% yearly ROI. You know, it can be 5% one week, and 45% another. Long term investment, wait at least year and make your conclusions then.
 

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the deeds will not pay out this good like it did past weeks.. if it will be like i think..:)
 

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Probably coincidence... altho humans often spot patterns where there are none :dunno:



aridash is right, and it could also be other circumstances that has affected it
 

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They already changed the wording on the deeds once to remove any implication of ownership. It would not be difficult to change the wording again to make the situation worse for cld owners...



It could theoretically go something like this (hopefully not, but it is plausible)...

oops "The Planet Partner Gross Revenue will be divided as follows 50% paid to Land Lot deedholders (1/60000), and the remaining 50% retained by Planet Calypso (AR Universe AB) to cover the ongoing development"... typo, should be 10%, time to update the item info screen... nah, just leave it as it is, no one will notice, will they?... No, let's just alter the contract between Mindark and the Planet Partner, redefining what "Planet Partner Gross Revenue" means to lower the total payout to Planet Partner substantially... Kim, you already work for Mindark, so let's just redefine your team's role to "advisor" so that we don't have to lower your salary. Hold off on creating a financial report this quarter that might reveal any of this to the public...

Hopefully nothing like that theoretical situation happens, but since the "contracT" was already changed at least once to remove the implication of ownership, it would not surprise me at all to see the contract changed again, without warning as there was no warning about the previous change, especially since it's not really a contract as the eula makes it not be a contract...

You expressly acknowledge that You do not obtain any ownership right or interest in the Virtual Item
They have not removed the phrase "land ownership system" yet. Probably just a matter of time... Maybe we should start a thread making guesses on the date they will change that, lol. My guess, about a month or so after Kim or someone at Mindark reads this post.
 

Ludvig|MindArk

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They already changed the wording on the deeds once to remove any implication of ownership.
Or to make it clearer that it does not matter who owns it, but who holds it.

If I own 10 deeds and a socmate holds them for me, the socmate will get the payout since he is the holder, meaning the revenue is not paid out to the owner.



I think you are overanalyzing this Mastermesh :silly2:
 

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you may have noticed a rush for people to buy them in the secondary market, hence pushing the value upto ~1200. thats going to give general revenue a hangover. i'd wait a couple or four weeks (allow for the next pay cheque cycle) to see if its a change to trend.
Could you explain please, how the transfer of ped from one player to another reduces the payout of the deeds (at nominal value)? The way I see it, the buyer has 1200 ped less to play with, the seller has 1200 Ped more.
 

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They already changed the wording on the deeds once to remove any implication of ownership.
yes, to be consistant with other game items and the TOU/EULA. they *could* change a lot of things: some times they have. they tend to keep major things unchanged though. not sure where the redlines for the general player base is, but they've apparently not crossed them yet. i think significant change to the CLD would be a major redline and would collapse the game and theyve given subtantial information in this area or promise to (cant really hide not doing a 6mth account or distort the numbers). so im pretty confindent they wont.
 

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They already changed the wording on the deeds once to remove any implication of ownership. It would not be difficult to change the wording again to make the situation worse for cld owners...
It's a mistake to believe that you really own anything in game. Here is the convoluted legal mumbo jumbo:

Virtual items are fictional in-world graphical objects with a predefined set of parameters in Entropia Universe and will often have names similar or identical to corresponding physical categories such as "people", "real estate", "possessions”, “currency”, “cloths” and the names of specific items in those categories such as "house", "rifle", "tools", "armor", “coat”, “money” etc. (“Virtual Items”). Despite the similarity in terminology, all Virtual Items, including virtual currency, are part of the Entropia Universe System and/or features of the Entropia Universe, and MindArk and/or respective Mindark’s Planet Partner(s) retains all rights, title, and interest in all parts including, but not limited to Avatars, Skills and Virtual Items. These retained rights include, without limitation, patent, copyright, trademark, trade secret and other proprietary rights throughout the world. Notwithstanding any other language or context to the contrary, as used in this EULA and/or in the Entropia Universe in the context of Virtual Items, You expressly acknowledge that all terms like “exchange of”, “trade with”, “purchase of”, “sale of” or “use of” Virtual Items, and all similar terms in context of transactions with Virtual Items, refers to the licensed right to use a certain feature of the Entropia Universe or the Entropia Universe System in accordance with the terms and conditions of this EULA.
Or in other words, you own nuthin!
 

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Could you explain please, how the transfer of ped from one player to another reduces the payout of the deeds (at nominal value)? The way I see it, the buyer has 1200 ped less to play with, the seller has 1200 Ped more.
a fair point. however, i wouldnt assume the seller is going to go out and immediately spend 1200 more on active play. traders trade, others only have x time to play or spend on other items. where as the buyer very likly has less money to carry on normal activity. if player T has budget of 2000 a month and bring forward plan to buy a deed, once purchaed they have less to spend than expected. price increase of 20-25% suggests a strong up surge in demand thats funded from somewhere (lots of speculator too no doubt). just a consideration.
 

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The wording of text in-game ultimately means nothing.
As has been pointed out above (and many times before) when it comes down to it, Mindark own your CLD's, your items, your skills, your PED's and you avatar and Mindark reserves exclusive right to change alter, add or remove anything - including but not limited to your entire investment - when and if they please (and have done so in the past).
The only thing any "player" in EU owned at any time was the debt tied to the monies you transferred into PED. At that point, all ownership was passed onto Mindark.
This is clearly outlined in the TOU/EULA and you agree that you understand this every time you open the EU client.

So the rhetoric examples are pointless. You have no right to anything in EU, unless you have an actual signed legally binding document saying otherwise, in which case, that document is still up for scrutiny in a court of law.
And I'm confident very, very few of you - if any - do have such a document.
 

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From the CLD Q&A:


I've seen nothing yet to suggest that 'during the preceding week' includes the weekend immediately before the payout.

It may, for example, be from the close-of-business on one Friday to close-of-business on the following Friday. Or possibly even Thursday to Thursday, like some payrolls are.

Personally, I find it difficult to believe the revenue cycle would be from midnight Sunday to midnight Sunday, MA time, ie immediately before payout, without the relevant financial people having an opportunity to review and sign off on the calculations.
Makes sense.
 
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Its easy to figure out...

MA obviously doesnt work on weekends after soo many of us were left in space to be human shaped satelites for the entire weekend. So it only goes along the MA thought train they werent there .. they didnt make money so therefore weekend income no longer gets added in...Pretty simple when you think like they do.....
 

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Posted elsewhere:

Let's be clear: I am not drawing any conclusions. The fact that I still have each CLD I bought should speak for itself.

But you cannot deny that it is quite a big coincidence that the payout drops shortly after all CLD are sold. Last week should be comparable to, say, another earlier event. I recall we had an eventweek, which ended up with 10 PED payout. So this is a lot lower. Such coincidences fuel conspiracies.

You can also not deny that "trust" is a very big factor in the whole CLD programme.

I think it is clear that the amount of trust may very well drop when there is the interpretation of events, or the perception of an interpretation of events, that something might not be right.

When CLD's were introduced, someone (don't recall who, probably were more than one person, mentioned something about the payout being high, just untill the last CLD was sold. These payouts SEEM to confirm his conspiracy theory.

In another thread, I already adressed Kim directly, asking him to provide evidence to proof that such conspiraty theorists are indeed in the wrong. The response to this was a deafening silence (other than the community, who was basically telling me to stfu and to go away with "my" conspiracies.

I believe MA has a strong incentive to continue doing good business on Calypso, but I am not actually SEEING any proof of this, not even after I have asked.

I really would like it if there would be some clear evidence that the CLD system is indeed legit. Not something provided by the community, which can be refuted by disbelievers, but something official, straight from the source.

If such proof is not delivered, this may lead to people drawing conclusions and indeed leaving Calypso, which would hurt Calypso, which would hurt the CLD owners, thus "confirming" the suspicions and believes of those who were conspiracy nuts. This could turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And I really would hate it if that would happen.
Yes, because it hurts me financially. But more for the same reason as I bought the CLDs in the first place: I believe in Calypso, I believe in its current state, I believe in its potential, and I even am starting to have some confidence in the management.

But no management can manage if the client base doesn't trust them anymore.

So please, MA... proof the conspiracy theories wrong, and tell us the reasons for the variations in payout.
 

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What kind of evidence would you accept as "proof" that there is no conspiracy?

I don't know why you expect the planet's revenue to stay constant. I do feel, however, that AR Universe needs to be transparent about their revenue. Perhaps allowing the deed holders to vote and select an accounting firm to do periodic audits or something like that might help prevent fear of fraud and conspiracy among the deed holders.
 

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Posted elsewhere:

Let's be clear: I am not drawing any conclusions. The fact that I still have each CLD I bought should speak for itself.

But you cannot deny that it is quite a big coincidence that the payout drops shortly after all CLD are sold. Last week should be comparable to, say, another earlier event. I recall we had an eventweek, which ended up with 10 PED payout. So this is a lot lower. Such coincidences fuel conspiracies.

You can also not deny that "trust" is a very big factor in the whole CLD programme.

I think it is clear that the amount of trust may very well drop when there is the interpretation of events, or the perception of an interpretation of events, that something might not be right.

When CLD's were introduced, someone (don't recall who, probably were more than one person, mentioned something about the payout being high, just untill the last CLD was sold. These payouts SEEM to confirm his conspiracy theory.

In another thread, I already adressed Kim directly, asking him to provide evidence to proof that such conspiraty theorists are indeed in the wrong. The response to this was a deafening silence (other than the community, who was basically telling me to stfu and to go away with "my" conspiracies.

I believe MA has a strong incentive to continue doing good business on Calypso, but I am not actually SEEING any proof of this, not even after I have asked.

I really would like it if there would be some clear evidence that the CLD system is indeed legit. Not something provided by the community, which can be refuted by disbelievers, but something official, straight from the source.

If such proof is not delivered, this may lead to people drawing conclusions and indeed leaving Calypso, which would hurt Calypso, which would hurt the CLD owners, thus "confirming" the suspicions and believes of those who were conspiracy nuts. This could turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And I really would hate it if that would happen.
Yes, because it hurts me financially. But more for the same reason as I bought the CLDs in the first place: I believe in Calypso, I believe in its current state, I believe in its potential, and I even am starting to have some confidence in the management.

But no management can manage if the client base doesn't trust them anymore.

So please, MA... proof the conspiracy theories wrong, and tell us the reasons for the variations in payout.
If I were you, i would continue to voice concerns over the slightest deviations from perfect payouts. Your voice of concern and, and your voice that seems to support conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact, should help out your cause tremendously.

Cheers :lolup:
 

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As CLD were introduced, I had a bad thought for a moment. I thought for a while that perhaps you guys would inflate payouts untill the final CLD was sold.

Now, the CLD are all sold and... wow...payout drops. Seriously?

Please, provide me some reassurance that my distrust from the beginning period is unfounded and that this drop of income is indeed a coincidence...
To be fair it's summer and better weather in mainland europe, maybe a factor to consider. Hope that your payouts even out per annum, for all deed holders .
 

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...
But you cannot deny that it is quite a big coincidence that the payout drops shortly after all CLD are sold.
...
Did you notice these coincidences:
- No more daily ATH the week CLDs were introduced.
- Back of the ATH last week.

Frankly, as a hunter I am happy all CLDs are sold now. Not willing to mix a game with a financial product, I have no CLD but my home is Calypso so I give you a little of my PED card everyday. :p

Wait some weeks more to see better trend.
 

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What kind of evidence would you accept as "proof" that there is no conspiracy?

I don't know why you expect the planet's revenue to stay constant. I do feel, however, that AR Universe needs to be transparent about their revenue. Perhaps allowing the deed holders to vote and select an accounting firm to do periodic audits or something like that might help prevent fear of fraud and conspiracy among the deed holders.
I expect some variation. Just not this big for now obvious reasons. It is very much time for a report. Every company runs quarterly numbers (hell, I just finished the one for my employer :D), so why can they not share it?

If I were you, i would continue to voice concerns over the slightest deviations from perfect payouts. Your voice of concern and, and your voice that seems to support conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact, should help out your cause tremendously.

Cheers :lolup:
The irony is not entirely lost in me :)

To be fair it's summer and better weather in mainland europe, maybe a factor to consider. Hope that your payouts even out per annum, for all deed holders .
*Looks out of the window*
Nope, didn't notice a weather improvement, but you might have a point.

Did you notice these coincidences:
- No more daily ATH the week CLDs were introduced.
- Back of the ATH last week.

Frankly, as a hunter I am happy all CLDs are sold now. Not willing to mix a game with a financial product, I have no CLD but my home is Calypso so I give you a little of my PED card everyday. :p

Wait some weeks more to see better trend.
Thank you for your kind contributions :) More, thank you for making Calypso just that bit better. I really hope for a strong Calypso.
 

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But you cannot deny that it is quite a big coincidence that the payout drops shortly after all CLD are sold.
You said it. It's a coincidence.

If you're getting in a stress about one week's payout, CLDs maybe are not for you. The long-run is what counts, and so far it's looking pretty decent.
 

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We'll know the full story when MA finally publish their independently audited report on Calypso which they promised they would do when they launched the clds :computer:
 

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You said it. It's a coincidence.

If you're getting in a stress about one week's payout, CLDs maybe are not for you. The long-run is what counts, and so far it's looking pretty decent.
The bolded bit is your interpretation which is mostly based on assumptions. Understandable assumptions, yes, but assumptions nevertheless ;)
 

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I expect some variation. Just not this big for now obvious reasons. It is very much time for a report. Every company runs quarterly numbers (hell, I just finished the one for my employer :D), so why can they not share it?

o they dont. at least in the UK, theres not any requirement to creat quarterly accounts, only yearly (with large multinationals doing quarterly or half-year). we've seen in the past MA produces an annual report with half yearly interim reports. so presumably thats the requirement in Sweden. as far as i know they havent missed their report since the CLD launch.

really i dont know what you are expecting. they've said they will produce a specific 6 monthly account related to the CLD, why cant you wait for this?
 
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