More PvP - The Bad Loot & Economic Solution

[billairboy]

There are lootable and non-lootable PvP areas. Every area that is lootable PvP is a toxic area which means that you can’t enter it on accident, if you do then you die. First you must get an anti-toxic shock from the TP, and then you can be in a toxic lootable PvP area

I know the diffrent
Only hard to tell when you say you whant more pvp if you mean more lootable pvp or nor. But either way, for people like i that mostly stay away from pvp i can't see the fun about being killed over and over again when i am crafting or just refilling my stock for a mining run. So all of us must be uber pvp killers to be able to play or what?

 

[billairboy]

One thing they could add is some system to allow "paint-ball/capture the flag" matches between diffren pvp teams and a series with matches each week between the teams and each year have "champion" team. Stuff like that put some more flavour to the pvp without effecting the other players.

 

[Rayne Jade]

One thing they could add is some system to allow "paint-ball/capture the flag" matches between diffren pvp teams and a series with matches each week between the teams and each year have "champion" team. Stuff like that put some more flavour to the pvp without effecting the other players.

I totally agree So do many others. There are several threads in the wishlist and events forums regarding that sort of thing. Unfortunately, with the way MA|FPC has the event system set up it is next to impossible to implement on our side.

 

[Rony]

One thing they could add is some system to allow "paint-ball/capture the flag" matches between diffren pvp teams and a series with matches each week between the teams and each year have "champion" team. Stuff like that put some more flavour to the pvp without effecting the other players.

I tried to explain about CTF like rig to some MA Monitor which poped there just before rig started dropping oil again, about benefits for MA and the player, but he didn't seem convinced that CTF organized matches would be better that what they proposed, even if he seemed interested about our feedback regarding new building they put at rig and its destination.
Such matches would be very interesting if winning players would get back some of the ammo spent during the match, E.G. ammo converted to some oil they get.

 

[zaxor]

more pvp isnt the answer

Since half my society is leaving because of poorer and poorer loot returns over the past few major vu changes and those that are still hanging in there are totally hanging onto some dream that things will change for the better. I been around long enough to know its a suckers dream for most players here to keep depositing and hope for the big HOF or ATH . I still am one of those suckers , at least for a few more weeks .. but my point is the real problem with the economy here is that MA...

#1 has been slowly driving away players by extrea


mly poor player support from the beggining , there only as of late responding favorably to any support cases.... ie.just like the when the mining claims were stuck on mountains only because they sensed that the miners were not going to deposit anymore till it was fixed and they cases were taken care of.

#2 They do very poor to non existent advertising to get new player in the game at least in the U.S . small player base means no new money to sustain the games economy

#3This is my real best guess on why most players loot return sucks and has been getting steadily suckier for past few years. MA is a corporation that has a yearly profit quota and most like (all) corporations they will do anything to make that profit quota , such as start pulling more and more money out of vast loot pool of the average jo blow miner , hunter and crafter to make up for the loss from the ever famous crappy support case department causing people to quit in disgust and bad advertising and using it to make there yearly profit quota so when they show there profit loss statements to companies that may want to partner with them or invest in them they look good on the books .

In a nut shell were paying more and more for MA's past and present bad business policy..

could also just be a simple case of corporate greed in which there just taking bigger pieces of pie out of a ever smaller pie pan but that could never happen not in this day and age.....


Zaxor the filling in the pie......

 

[xillonz]

Whilst I support PvP, and would love to see more of it, this idea assumes a pool theory of loot. How do we know it works that way?

 

[HardWrath]

Whilst I support PvP, and would love to see more of it, this idea assumes a pool theory of loot. How do we know it works that way?

Because this is real money in EU. Since the system clearly is input/output based it inherently dictates there are things in place to allocate loot distribution which in turn means there is a "pool" of some kind at least on some level.

 

[xillonz]

Because this is real money in EU. Since the system clearly is input/output based it inherently dictates there are things in place to allocate loot distribution which in turn means there is a "pool" of some kind at least on some level.

I don't think that there being things in place to allocate loot distribution means there is a pool type thing.

For example: loot distribution could be decided by simple functions that have the probability of getting a certain ped value of loot on the y axis. This function may change depending on the mob, and it is set such that the probability of getting loot greater than the cost to kill is < 0.5.

This loot theory assumes no pool. (by pool I mean a set amount of peds to be distributed to the players). As such, under this theory, more ped expenditure (such as in PvP) does not directly increase the chance of good loot. It would have to be a response from MA going: "oh look here, we are making more money because everyone is pvping now, spose we can afford to modify the loot function now". It's also hard to tell if this is indeed how MA would react.

I'm not saying that this is the correct theory just that it's not obvious more PvP is the answer. Apologies if I have missed something, I have not read the entire thread.

 

[Tussi]

A mid level player with (L) weapons, (L) armor, and a EK-2600 can go to lootable PvP areas right now in EU and be profitable by PKing other players.

Please specify with what (L) armor you think i am able to outpfap (using EK-2600) eg. Star (modStuff user) for longer than halve a dozend seconds.

Going into lootable PvP and killing people typically yields 10-100 PED in loot per kill, often times a few shots are all that is needed to kill the person. Do the math.

Please specify with what (L) weapon(s) you think i would be able to kill Star (while wielding her modFAP) at all.

Unlike hunting, mining, or crafting, the skills of the human behind the avatar trump the skills and equipment of the avatar itself.

And now please explain to me why i should waste time on the futile attempt to combat someone who is basically in god mode for 99.9% of all participants here.

Either way, PvP in EU is an intense experience. It gets your adrenaline going, makes your hands shake, and provides entertainment at a VERY cheap price.

I think this answers it:

I still dont understand your logic , and fail to see , how pvp could generate a new general revenu for player...

Tussi

 

[HardWrath]

The answer to that is Star isn’t the only person in EU

In the above equipment scenarios, Star would kick your ass. At the same time, Star isn’t the only person in EU and he isn’t the only one in PvP

Instead of fighting the most difficult players, fight the battles that you can win in lootable PvP

 

[lilmoo]

I keep hearing that MA needs to make a profit and that really isn't true.

MA needs to cover expenses, they do NOT need to make a profit. Profit is the gravy you make when your company is doing well. Profit is what you have left after EVERYTHING else is paid for. Some companies do not make much profit or any profit at all because everything they do make after expenses goes back into the company in the form of research or marketing or price reductions.

The profit MA makes is taken directly from the players. It is my understanding that MA is in private hands so this profit can go directly into the private bank accounts of its owners, if they wish.

Of course there is nothing wrong with the owner of a company doing this, it is their company but there really isn't a need to question why the loot sux when this company is making millions in profit is there?

I am saying this because I keep reading that MA needs to make a profit. MA could instead leave the profit or in other words the players money in the game and try to grow the playerbase and use some for advertsing but instead I guess it is going into someones bank account and remember this is money over and beyond salaries and perks and everything else like the cost of the new game engine.

Maybe I am just stating the obvious but there are millions of companies that go on for decades and never make any real profit and in fact go deeper and deeper into debt until banks cut them off. That's the way the world goes around.

 

[HardWrath]

Well when a company is dependent on its investors and has very little cash reserves, then yes, you do have to make a profit... if not you are gonna have some big problems.

 

[lilmoo]

Well when a company is dependent on its investors and has very little cash reserves, then yes, you do have to make a profit... if not you are gonna have some big problems.

By investors do you mean the players?

If you mean banks or private persons that MA owes from past loans then that debt and interest is already counted in expenses. It is not paid from profits.

Again profit is what is left after everything else is paid for. Profit for a private company is what the owner can spend on his wife or buy new cars with, profit is not used to pay off debt to investors, otherwise it would not be profit.

Yes public companies use profits to pay shareholders but MA is not a public company, therefore the owners can do whatever they want with it.

Very few companies have real positive cash reserves when debt is figured in. Very very few.

 

[dacampelo]

I haven't read all the posts, I will do that later and sorry if this was already discussed or if it doesn't bring anything new...

I consider the PvP ideia good, though only have specific places for it...

Though, by creating more lootable areas that generate resources or give other benefits, even if occupying small area, like the current rig, I think there would be more activity.
But, instead of having more rig, it would be nicer to have variety, for example stone extraction site (for Lysterium and near mineapolis) and other materials, there could even be an university site (near PA), where a random player inside the area would get a skill increase (at the same TT rate as the other sites), robot secret facility (that would send out robot parts), etc...

Now if other things would be placed in such areas, like AU, TT terminal, Craft machine but no storage and revive, socs would start to get to fight each other to control the place and make it their territory.

I just been few times to the Oil rig because there's not much to do around... Just wait, chat and get killed (by either a player or high maturity mob )

My point is, increase the quantity, quality, variety and make the areas lootable and they will get more ppl around. And there would be no monopoly due to the increase number of areas to "conquer".

 

[Dan59]

The answer to that is Star isn’t the only person in EU

In the above equipment scenarios, Star would kick your ass. At the same time, Star isn’t the only person in EU and he isn’t the only one in PvP

Instead of fighting the most difficult players, fight the battles that you can win in lootable PvP

Even if you are prepared to kill some naked noob miner dont do it. There is always uber pker near who is making living in PVP4 and who will kill you after you looted your noob victim.

Is waste of time.

To do things more efficient and dont waste time then make a list of pkers and donate them peds in town - is much faster and more human than make them wait long hours in PVP4 for you to come.

But if you belive that Pkers dont earn and only MA earn then please make donations on MA account instead to let them wait hours, days, months that pker get you.

 

[HardWrath]

Is waste of time.

Frankly it’s in the eyes of the beholder. What is a waste of time to one person isn’t to the other, this applies to all aspects of EU.

 

[Legion]

The bottom line is that PvP is fun, it helps to fuel the game economy, and the ammo burned in PvP adds PED to the loot system.

We need more PVP!

Just think about all of the ammo burn that entered the loot system in those first two Wastelander videos. Imagine if that kind of thing was happening nonstop at 12 different oil rigs.

Thing here is YOU think it's fun. But if you take the average mmo player they dont like pvp or well they do like pvp but on their terms. Implement pvp all over eudoria and we will have an exodus of players leaving the game that i can promise you.

 

[Rayne Jade]

Instead of fighting the most difficult players, fight the battles that you can win in lootable PvP

Sounds great.... however... one does not always have the luxery of picking their fights in PVP3/4. If I am the one being attacked, it's not like I can "lay down my King" and surrender. I will still get killed and looted. A quick TP out is questionable considering that most of the uber PKers have long range rifles that can (and will) hit you from the edge of the radar distrupting the MF charge.

To keep with the example: If Star is in the looting/PKing mood, I doubt my cries of "I don't want to fight you" will matter

 

[thoreau]

I skimmed the thread but I may have missed a few points. Sorry if I repeat what others have said.

Assuming that MA/FPC is still following the revenue model from the past - decay is revenue- the only additional funds from more PVP would be from ammo. Point - there may not be as much an increase in loot as one might think.

In every game I have played with an open PVP system griefing has been an issue. In fact, I can't think of a single game with a fully open PVP system. As soon as you start making special rules - revival zones for example - players find ways to exploit those rules - and that takes away from the PVP aspect. Point - PVP is very difficult to implement properly. Maybe impossible.

Putting the burden of lower returns back on the players by asking them to lose more money by participating in PVP seems odd. In addition, I'm not sure the numbers work out. If you open up an entire continent to PVP how many players would actually engage in PVP on a regular basis? Is that number large enough to effectively increase the loot for the rest of the player base? Point - I don't think 5% participation in PVP can noticeably increase the loot for 95% of players.

MA/FPC have numerous in-game revenue streams that are under utilized. For example, how many apartments sit month after month without rent being paid? Point - there are other game elements that would be easier to implement that could increase loot. Requiring players to pay monthly rents or losing their apartment is one possibility.

 

[mastermesh]

In game savings accounts...

Another thing MA might want to try eventually would be in games savings accounts... That is you put x amount of peds in the bank teller as a savings account. It will gain interest, and then when you pull it out, it is more than you put in. MA is a real world company that uses real world banks to do some transactions sometimes. What they should do is set up in game savings that is based on real world savings... They should pick some bond or savings account type setup that gains a certain set percent always... example would be US savings bonds which gain 5% interest, i.e. doubles the money in 20 years (not quite 5% per year if you pull it out too soon)... So that is gaining 5% per year... they could set it so that in game banks work with this system.. and pays back a set rate that is below the real world rate... For example with this 5% on savings bonds, it could be like 2% goes on to the in game in game savings account so the player who invested is making cash... then 2% of that goes in to the loot pool, and 1% is split between MA and the Bank Owner... The payout amount would be based on future investors money sort of, and MA would keep the real savings bonds or whatever sitting until they actually reach maturity... The in game banks would serve as more than just pawn shops with a fancy facade. If the participant pulls the money out sooner, and there's penalties in the real world savings bonds this is linked to, the penalty would carry over to the participants account. There is a lot of potential here, especially if they get a real world bank involved and get that atm system up and going too.

 

[SpikeBlack]

MA/FPC have numerous in-game revenue streams that are under utilized. For example, how many apartments sit month after month without rent being paid? Point - there are other game elements that would be easier to implement that could increase loot. Requiring players to pay monthly rents or losing their apartment is one possibility.

its not rent, its a management fee. Apartments are bought not rented.

 

[mastermesh]

its not rent, its a management fee. Apartments are bought not rented.

It's not a management fee either... It's a "maintanence fee" and not all estates have it. Apartments do, and shops do, but hangers, booths, and some houses don't... and the cost varies from place to place. Therefore it's an unfair fee in my opinion. I can almost guarantee that more estates will have active shops if that maintanence fee is removed for all estates. Instead of charging a monthly fee every month just to have the place open, MA should implement a new shop tax... in addition to, or a part of the LA owner shop tax... so like the normal tax goes to LA owner as is now (which is close to 2% I think) and an additional 1% tax would go to MA... and then MA could maybe do something like keep 50% of that 1% and give the other 50% to the loot pool... That way shopping at in game shops actually helps feed the loot pool instead of just the pockets of the LA owners... and that 1% should be a base... LA owners should be given an option to increase the contribution to loot pool... I don't want taxes going sky high since it will make shop owners not want to sell much as they will have an even smaller margin they have to work with... but I do think LA owners could do something like give some % of their share of taxes back to loot pool for their own LA... so LAs that have good shops will encourage people to use the shops more often and actually use the LA more often to mine, craft, or hunt in.

Additionally, shop owners should be given the right to make markup go below +1... I realize it's there to make taxes not go too low, which would make LA owners complain, but on some things like blueprints, stackable items, etc. that +1 Ped as minumum markup hurts shops since .01 blueprint/stackable tt value + 1 + tax = about 1.02, which is higher than the auctioneer can do sometimes on common stuff like low level blueprints... even though the shop owners are paying less in taxes and overhead than the folks selling on the auction are.... That +1 minimum for shops should go down to +.50 or +.75 or something so that minimum markup in shops can actually be below what it is in auction, which would encourage folks to buy from shops more. The +1 ped minimum markup is an insanely high minimum markup on some items, and gives shop owners an unfair disadvantage to the auctioneer and street sellers standing around at Twin and PA.

 

[SpikeBlack]

Getting back to the pvp...

How would you allow people to get away from the tp's if the whole of a continent was pvp.

If a player doesn't have a tp chip then they'd never be able to get away from a revive or a tp as the pkr's would just hang around the safe area border and kill them as soon as they left it.

 

[rhogenbe]

I have said it before in other threads and what i read here in the discussion is that Hardwrath is trying to propose a solution to increase the value for money experience of the players.

In my opinion MA needs to do a couple of things:
- Fix the mob AI
Nice to have solid trees/rocks but make sure the mob AI knows how to handle them
- Fix the strange bigs/'features' of VU10
People want to be able to outrun mobs again that they used to be able to outrun. Also i have encountered a lot of hills/mountains which i could run up IRL faster running backwards then forwards ingame
- Get the content at least back to VU9.4 level
There are still a lot of things missing ingame. Like sweating, taming.
- Improve overall game performance
To many people can not play the game with their old hardware and even high end new hardware has problems running the game
- Reduce the height and amount of uber loots and improve average loot
I am certain the amount of active players now is lower then i started almost 4 years ago. Strangely enough there are more big loots a month then back then. The average return has gotten way worse. Most players could play a month hardcore with around $50 on their own level. Nowadays it hardly lasts a week. Players will not deposit more then they want but only being able to play a game only one week a month for $50 is no good advertising for the game.

So far as i have seen the players are the greatest form of advertising that MA has. Make sure that the active players are happy players. That will cause a slowly increasing influx of new/returning old players because happy players will tell others that they really enjoy the game. The value for money aspect!

Once this stage is reached the game will start to crawl out of the sink hole it is in atm.

There are a lot of suggestions which can make the game a lot more fun (addictive) without costing a lot of money for MA to create.

- Disable radar and TP chips in PvP area's
- Create more simpler forms of ingame entertainment
The hexagons are small. Create somewhere a big colloseum and have it possible to create team vs team events. With optional settings like everyone same armor/weapons/HP levels so that noob players have areas where they can be equal to uber players. Also preventing outside interference from others. One could make an entire league of soc wars this way.

We do not mind paying for entertainment as long as we feel that the entertainment has a correct level for the amount of money we spend.

Cheers
Siam

 

[billairboy]

- Reduce the height and amount of uber loots and improve average loot

Siam

Agree. Increase the avarage "no global/hof" loot and decrease the extreme globals and hofs. This is more important when you are hunting the more expansive mobs, because huntingtrips without a global can quickly become very expansive.

 

[HardWrath]

Agree. Increase the avarage "no global/hof" loot and decrease the extreme globals and hofs. This is more important when you are hunting the more expansive mobs, because huntingtrips without a global can quickly become very expansive.

The problem with that is the large loots inspire more people to be active in the standard three professions. Without them, less and less people will be active in the professions thus putting the system into a deeper downward spiral.

The few large loots that we see per day arent going to change loot that much.

 

[Etopia]

The problem with that is the large loots inspire more people to be active in the standard three professions. Without them, less and less people will be active in the professions thus putting the system into a deeper downward spiral.

The few large loots that we see per day arent going to change loot that much.

seeing 200k ath may inpire some ,doing 50%TTback hunting at first hunt make run away many...
EU is a game different than those gambler "tiket" you scratch...Player whant to play , not only gamble...

 

[HardWrath]

seeing 200k ath may inpire some ,doing 50%TTback hunting at first hunt make run away many...
EU is a game different than those gambler "tiket" you scratch...Player whant to play , not only gamble...

Yea but how often do we see 200K loots?

MA & FPC have already demonstrated that they arent going to change the loot simply because people are pissed off because someone else got a big loot. Because of that, there is no point in dragging this thread further off topic and beating a dead horse.

 

[dacampelo]

Agree. Increase the avarage "no global/hof" loot and decrease the extreme globals and hofs. This is more important when you are hunting the more expansive mobs, because huntingtrips without a global can quickly become very expansive.

I tend to agree and that is in my understanding the main reason why the loot average return is so bad. If you decrease the average global value to half everyone would get more PED in return in each run. Which would cause more players to play. More players mean an increase number of globals. More globals mean better average returns. More average return mean, guess, more players (more players can be interpreted as the same player investing more time and PED on their regular activities), etc...

Currently the cycle is reversed and needs to be broken and inverted. The less players get into the game to actually play, the worse the loot will be. There are many solutions to this problem, the best is to make current players less unhappy so that they can enjoy the game and start spending more in a happy way.

If a player deposits the fisrt time 100$, and loses it in a few weeks due to bad returns. He may rethink and start to read a bit more on how he caan improve his way of playing. Then he deposits another 100$ and it goes well. Then he deposits another 100$ and it goes way too bad. Thinking it was just a baad period he deposits again, but with no better result... In the end he will just quit.
Now if you get a player enjoy his 100$ for some time, he's more likely to enjoy aand eventually deposite more then the initial 100$, and start to deposit 150$ and so on...
The secret is to make ppl think they are winning, even if economicly they're losing...

I think the point of this thread is not related with losing PEDs, but not losing PEDs to fast and to try to revert the current cycle...


I agree with HW on this matter as I do beleave that this is one of the points that would help the economy to grow up. Of course there are mmaany others that need to improve, but there are maany players out there that really enjoy PvP and want to have opportiunity to explore this feature on the game. Be it with they're soc mates, be it individually.

Regardless my opinion is that everyone need to think on what they're doing and the consequences of they actions. This goes for MA/FPC (why are so many players really unhappy? How can this reverted?) and for all players (are you really playing the game right? Haven't you placed the expectations to high? Are you here because of the HOF?).
One think I remember, before VU10, there were alot of globals. Even read commments like: "Wow, alot of lucky players today.", "My run went very good.", "Yeay a global!", "Loss of +/-16%". I don't remember reading: "10 exas and no loot", "Major loss this run..." - (Please not that I'm not complaining)

 

[Gluepot]

More lootable PvP areas wouldn't increase PvP activity. It isn't the number of PvP areas that's the problem, the problem is we don't have enough PKers. Try PKing in PvP4 for a bit and you'll see... There is plenty of area, but not enough people to shoot. Making 12 more lootable PvP areas would only spread out the people and make it harder to find action.
RX events and land grabs (except the most recent one) are great ways to generate PvP activity. Someone also suggested at one point an LA that was like the rig, in the sense that you'd simply go claim it and then you'd earn the taxes on it. You could either stand there and defend the claim, or claim it and walk away and risk it getting taken by somebody else. If MA set up a weekly event where you could sign up (with no fees) and duel people 1v1 or in a free for all, winner wins an LA for a week, I think it could generate a good bit of money every week.
LA ideas: It would have to be one really sexy LA. Unique minerals, unique mobs with high health, low aggression, and decent density which drop unique (L) items, etc.
Perhaps you could set up multiple LAs with multiple skill brackets, obviously the top bracket LA being the sexiest, the bottom LA being somewhat less sexy but still unique. Size matters - the higher tier LA would need to be big. Perhaps set up a new space station for this? Or unlock more of Amethera (I haven't seen the map since VU 10.0, my perception could be outdated).

Well yeah that's just an idea... Plenty more if you want to hear 'em.