Should MA put the cap back on Sweat Gathering?

Should Mindark put the sweat gathering cap back on?


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Captain Mak

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Captain Mak
Yes ME has dropped in price, but a new participant, with the big three money making 'things to do' has a rough time starting out. He/She will quit before he/she can get a foothold in the universe.

So, should the cap on Sweat Gathering be put back in place?
 
I don't think that would help tbh.... people will just create secondary avatars...
 
Hell Yes.

It would increase the price an although yes people will make second acc it won't affect prices too much.


neg rep for even asking :laugh:

joking
 
No it should not be put on. If you look at the markets, mind essence is cheap and is available right now. People DEPOSIT to buy supplies and then buy ME with that money. If we replace the cap, prices go back up, ME skillers will have to pay a lot more and it will result in less mind essence being needed because fewer people will use it.
So you want to raise the sweat prices. All this does is leech more money off the paying depositers and drop it into the hands of the freeloaders who many will end up never depositing and will just reach the sweat cap and either create a new account and break the EULA, or in turn will quit after leeching a lot of money.
If we leave the sweat cap off, then people are free to sweat all they want and the market is in equilibrium right now. If someone truly wants to just leech, then they cannot do it as well as before and then walk out with our money, while people who sweat and deposit are able to do so just fine as is.
There are enough limitations on this economy as it is with high prices, the last thing we need is another. I'm already tired of the noobs who pull this 'omg i'm gonna have a personal crusade and try to push sweat prices up'. They really need to take a nice course in college economics...
 
I voted yes. I think it would bring the price of sweat up a bit and that will help the noobies off to a better start. The ppl who play the game by the rules would then have to buy sweat from the noobs, instead of just getting it them selves.
If people are going to go through the problem of creating a new AV to do something like sweat, then let them. They cant keep their atributes and they will have to continuesly start over. The only real benifit to not haveing the sweat cap, is that it alows a real player who is down and out a way to work them selves back in.
 
I vote no. I think it will make it too easy for resellers to inflate the price of sweat, making it near impossible to use MF with anykind of effectiveness. Even now MF is still too expensive to be econical. Besides when sweat is free and unlimited its not really a problem for new participants to earn enough peds to buy initial armor and weapons plenty have done it and are still doing it. It may take longer but it's not like there is any monthly fees. Instead of MA reimplementing the sweat cap they should just do a MF version update to increase the demand of sweat. But of course that's just my :twocents:...

Emery
 
Fun

This is a lively discussion. Thanks, I'm having fun just reading the replies. Much good information, I hope many read this as there is knowledge in those that have replied already.:)
 
Increase the usage of ME to influence prices, don't decrease the availability.

This can be done by using better TP chips (where are they :( ) , ...

I vote no. I think it will make it too easy for resellers to inflate the price of sweat, making it near impossible to use MF with anykind of effectiveness. Even now MF is still too expensive to be econical. Besides when sweat is free and unlimited its not really a problem for new participants to earn enough peds to buy initial armor and weapons plenty have done it and are still doing it. It may take longer but it's not like there is any monthly fees. Instead of MA reimplementing the sweat cap they should just do a MF version update to increase the demand of sweat. But of course that's just my :twocents:...

Emery

I agree, A MF update would also help with sweat prices.

Secondly, anyone trying to cornor the sweat market is going to get what they deserve. Sweat reselling is a major part of why the price dropped. Through their greed to buy low and sell higher they forced the common player to compete with them for sales....never try to under sell a noob :laugh: you wont win!
 
No it should not be put on. If you look at the markets, mind essence is cheap and is available right now. People DEPOSIT to buy supplies and then buy ME with that money. If we replace the cap, prices go back up, ME skillers will have to pay a lot more and it will result in less mind essence being needed because fewer people will use it.
So you want to raise the sweat prices. All this does is leech more money off the paying depositers and drop it into the hands of the freeloaders who many will end up never depositing and will just reach the sweat cap and either create a new account and break the EULA, or in turn will quit after leeching a lot of money.
If we leave the sweat cap off, then people are free to sweat all they want and the market is in equilibrium right now. If someone truly wants to just leech, then they cannot do it as well as before and then walk out with our money, while people who sweat and deposit are able to do so just fine as is.
There are enough limitations on this economy as it is with high prices, the last thing we need is another. I'm already tired of the noobs who pull this 'omg i'm gonna have a personal crusade and try to push sweat prices up'. They really need to take a nice course in college economics...

A few points:

1. New participants won't deposit UNTIL they get a feel for the universe. They will quit long before they would ever get to the point that they will start depositing.

2. It would never be possible to "leech a lot of money" off the depositing players as you need 1000 Ped to make a withdrawl. The new participant, even with sweat selling at 3.0 (which it was with the cap) would reach the cap (as it was) before they could earn enough to withdraw funds.

3. Creating a new avatar, IS, as you say, breaking the EULA, MA should prosecute these people with extreme prejudice. Bsides, a new start means all skill are set to zero...there is no advantage in this.

4. "People who sweat and deposit" exist in the universe only AFTER they get a foothold. That foothold will never take as most noobs quit way before they get to the point of even thinking about making a deposit.

5. One noob or 1000 noobs will not be able to hold/raise the price of sweat. there will always be a person who will prostitute him/her self to get a little cash, that one person will defeat any chance 1000 would have of controlling the price. I learned that from "a nice course in college economics..."
 
I always felt sweat cap should have been kept, while I was sweating and selling. But now that I'm mining Nexus, buying sweat and selling Me, I prefer it the way it is. I know that this sounds self serving, but isn't every vote really based on personal preference? Thats my 2 pec anyways.
 
New approach to thinking required

Hey gang,

Not exactly sure about putting a cap on sweating will help.
I do see the validity of keeping the price of sweat healthy though.

I think maybe the situation has to be approached from a different angle to increase the uptake and usage of sweat/nexus in the form of ME.

Firstly though a few improvements have to be made to the entire reliability and stability of the Mindforce system internally on MAs end.

Things like Mindforce actions getting stuck or lagging when the loot subsystem has a hangup, untieing the routines and/or (as I am not sure just spectulating at this point) the hardware which the subsystems run on.

You will also find that ME lags out when grenaders/missilers are in the immediate area, same goes with miners (this is a royal pain in the arse) along with on occassion more than one participant in the immediate area with high repetition handguns. (H400 or better)

Anyhow I have read back now over the past few weeks a number of times where MA has stated that down the track improvements will be made to the way which Mindforce works, so hopefully we shall eventually see improvements come through (Possibly after the IPO, maybe after the crytek update). This should help in increasing the demand from users of ME.

I have also made a few wishlist suggestions also ...

1. https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/wishlist/91976-mindforce-enhancements-new-gem-based-crafted-line-goods.html

2. https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/wishlist/91956-unified-yet-decentralised-dependancy-various-subsystems.html

Currently I am working on Nerveblasing myself at the rate of 200k ME per fortnight as per ...

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/buying/94207-buying-ordering-large-quantities-nexus-140-a.html

In the thread I have upped my offering to 145% ;)

To give you a costing breakdown of Nerveblasting, 5 ME per shot ...

Using a Ae Implant 1pec decay + Moderate Nerveblast Chip 1.7pec decay
Sweat @ 0.6pec x 5 = 3pec (Expense/loss of 3pec)
Force Nexus 145% / 1.45pec x 5 = 7.25pec (0.45pec x 5 = 2.25 expense/loss)

Your looking at a TT burn per shot (5 ME) of 7.7pec
and a loss in markup outgoings of 5.25pec
Total = 12.95pec per shot

This would equate to using a limited melee weapon at a value of 168%
Or in simple terms a 68% markup (7.7 TT x 1.68 = ~ 12.95)

So ME can not rise too much higher than the 205% which it is rated at currently for it to be deemed useful, or moreso affordable by the community at large.

Anyhow I hope this helps into understanding why prices are the way they are,
Ask yourself, would you buy a limited melee weapon for 168% ;)

Hence why the problem needs to be tackled from a different angle to improve uptake of sweat/nexus/ME.

~ Sparkz

PS. Even with sweat @ 0.5pec and Nexus @ 135% your cost per shot nerveblasting with the moderate chip (which has sibs btw) will cost you the same as skilling with a melee weapon @ 155%

I started my ventures with the moderate chip pretty much as soon as I could use it (well shortly there after) I was at 2.3/10.0 after ~ 250k ME thus far, I am approaching 4.0/10.0 my estimation on maxing the sibs on this chip is around ~ 1 mil ME (200k shots). I will let you know after this 6 weeks what hit ratio I am at and how much ME was used to obtain it.
 
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Not only no but you put the sweat cap back on sure you guys get your increased sweat price but then what? itll put 100's of people out of sweating jobs cause they reach the cap and won't have a source for income anymore.


so either .5 pec sweat for lifetime or 1.0 pec sweat for a week or 2.
 
If you ask me the system as it is now is not broken and doesn't need fixed. When I mine Force I sweat my own sweat as buying it only cuts into my profit. A cap not only would restrict the amount of ME I can make a day it would drive the prices through the roof. The way it is now I sell my ME from 200-205% which to me seems resonable to both buyers and sellers. Look at it this way. I mine 50 ped of force, I need 5k sweat. With a cap of even 500 it would take me 10 days to fill the force myself ( I shoot for 1k per day but usually I get around 800 in a few hours). I could buy it but if the price goes up to 10 ped per 1k sweat due to low supply I can no longer sell at 200%, now you're looking at 250% or more to buy ME due to higher cost to refine and less supply.

I sweated for a solid few weeks when I first started playing a few months ago and made do with 6 ped for 1k but could sweat 2k in a day. Did it take a long time and get boring after a while? Yes, but once I was able to buy a gun and ammo and some mining equipment it got more fun and I ended up depositing $25. Had there been a cap I probably would have given up and moved on to another game.
 
No caps back ....

Make sweating 10 times more easy to gather. Like if i need 500 sweat i can get it in 20 min with no SG skills.
This way ME will be just at Nexus price and Mindforce using will rise fast and will improve fast.

MA should support newcomers in some other way by giving some start stuff with no value what can be used (try some hunt/mine).

For example: Mini CND with 3 domes where that 0 PED value gun, ammo, mining tools and bombs can be used and even loot gained, only thing that loot gets off when area left. Just a bit of skills leaves gained as bonus. Newcomers there can try a game and decide deposit or not and leave or stay in game.

imo
 
No

first question i have to those who want the sweat cap back for newbies, so the price gonna get higher will be

"why dont you buy it simply at 3.0 already now?"
best you scan the person before, to be a bit more sure if it looks like newbie though

but why do you need a cap for that? ^.-


then, another reason for no, its simply because i like sweating, its pretty relaxing
and sometimes more interesting that hunting actually ;)

i actually went to Bio skilling a bit, if i would have to buy the sweat, even at 1.0. i wouldn't do it

i could go for more eco options, you know ;)

other problem

during the time when i started, the price was 1.3, the quitting rate was 90%, as today
at 3.0 the quitting rate would most likely be about the same

the reason for that is easy
most of the newbies think you can make quick cash by playing, without putting anything in, and those will quit
if the price for sweat is 1.0, and they realise in a week that hunting doesnt bring money and quit
or 3.0 and they realise in 2 days that hunting doesnt bring money and quit, wont make the difference i guess


the effect of this price however, might have funny side effects on the way

first, several ppl would make secondary avas
against eula? sure
but how can MA tell if your brothers, mother, father, grandma (ok, thats strange maybe :p), etc play
even with same IP, i mean, some ppl live together in the same house with same network

other side effect, which would hit the MF skillers, well
i guess an easy example shows that best

imagine, you have a maxed tt fap, and want to heal 24 HP
7.7-10.3 is the interval, you gotta fap around 3 times, cost ~ 2.7 pec

if you want to use a minor heal for 24 heal, you need just 1 try
but, you have 3 pec chip decay, 1 pec implant decay, and 1 ME used, which is currently worth ~2 pec
hence, 6 pec, more than double than the tt fap already
now imagine sweat at 3.0, nexus might be cheaper than, say 1 pec (easier)
4 pec for ME
and suddenly you have 2 pec more heal cost per heal, with the minor that is

the medium chip had 4 pec already

the result is quite easy, you would see most likely less healers at the swamp camp, hence making it harder to sweat
if less ppl heal, the bio use goes back, the ME use goes back, the sweat becomes cheaper again

other funny side effect, is that TP users might be quite angry ;)
i mean, if fuel becomes more expensive for your car RL, you moan as well, don't you? ;)

might lead to less tping, less ME needed, sweat price going down

focusing, similar to healing, you can rise the cost considerably
--

what i want to say, ppl tend to see just the newbie part, "awww, the poor newbies, noone pays 3.0 for their sweat anymore, they all gonna quit!"
i doubt 3.0 would help that much more

the base problem with sweat you have, is that a pretty small group of players has to pay for ALL the sweaters, and that is the MF users
how many ppl do you know who skill with MF chips healing, focussing, or even attacking?
more than 10?, and how many newbies come here everyday?

the only real useful group in case of supporting newbies, are the ppl using teleport chips i guess
is it fair to this group to shift all the cost for the sweaters to them?


most ppl in EU are hunters, imagine sweat would be used to craft ammo suddenly (if you are a miner, say for probes and bombs)
would you do the same thread again? "rise the sweat price so i can pay more for ammo, 110% i would like to spend, but i would help newbies!" ?

and that would actually be more fair, since more ppl are hunters, and far less use MF, no?

hence, i agree with the "improve mindforce and uses for mindforce" thing, to rise the demand
not to lower the supply artificially
 
Well said Alice +rep for that.

i also agree putting a cap back on will put a lot of people out of work since sweating is a side job or fun time.

I also agree that changing the MF system would increase demand for ME. we need new MF capabilities or more of the current mid-high level chips to increase demand. There is a lot of possibilities out there in terms of MF, USE THEM! dont ignore them lets see some new things outside focus, heal, tping, and 2 attack types. the system is outdated and needs to be updated with new things to increase interested and demand.

just my :twocents:
 
About future updates,

I think after the IPO has gone through, various internal infrastructure updates are completed, Development team has been increased along with new skillsets added and the Crytek engine has been implemented into EU;

You will all find a lot of the current problems with various systems fade away.
The Crytek engine is not only a fantastic look good engine, it is superior in it's superb accuracy, functionality and performance vs all other engines on the market to date.

I prefer not to complain about things too much at this time, just make suggestions for the devs & platform economists MA side to consider. I will give it 3 to more-so 6 months after crytek integration has occured before I start criticising poorly performing systems that may be in place.

~ Sparkz.
 
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Well... I think that all other things are so expensive and nothing at all seems to be increasing so i think that some cheap things is in the right order :cool:
 
Best thing to help a noob get on in this universe =

Knowledgeable and patient mentor.

OR


VISA. Deposit and ya dont have to worry about the sweatcap. And it is more fun. And it is less time consuming. And it means that the depositors dont have to listen to the whining about 1/2 pec difference between the buying and selling of sweat ....

Harsh? Yes.

Fair? I think so.

Or do away with sweating altogether.

=

No more sweat threads.
No more 'raise the price of sweat' threads.
No more sweat camp whining.
No more ME.....wait. Maybe not such a good idea....

Maybe bring back a sweat cap....but rigerously enforce 'sweating only' multiple avatars...

On second thoughts, leave it as it is. Too much hassle to change it, and there is an incentive for people to deposit if sweat is dead cheap...
 
I really like this

I am learning so much here! Thanks for the input. You see, I have never tried any MF, I have a Aa Mindforce Impant equipped but have never gotten a chip or any ME.

Also please remember, this thread is not a whine, it was and is to stimulate conversation and learn. I know there are whining threads regarding the price of sweat, I put this thread here because sweat is a resource.

TY so much for the great info. this poll will be open ten days, I will read every post, I hope they are as good as the first two pages...now I will go back and rep all I like, even the ones that disagree with me.

(I could use some rep too if any are so inclined).
 
I think no. I personally enjoy sweating from time to time (usually just before the paycheck when peds are low:) -- not doing it for a profit, just enjoying fact that i am getting some skills for free).

On the other hand if you want to make life easier for newbies in terms of sweat price, then it might be better to make it the more sweating skill you have - less sweat you gather.

That way the newbies will have easier time sweating/selling, and those of us who still enjoy sweating would be able to do it, but at a reduced speed/success rate.
 
I say no. What EU need is a way more advanced mentorsystem, a system
that makes it more fun for both mentor and disciple.
And a bonussystem for depositers, ofcourse... :D ;)
 
:yay::yay:
Yes ME has dropped in price, but a new participant, with the big three money making 'things to do' has a rough time starting out. He/She will quit before he/she can get a foothold in the universe.

So, should the cap on Sweat Gathering be put back in place?
 
No, the game costs enough already, not to pay 3pec a bottle :( just to be able to tp.
No problem with people that don't depo, but I don't want a lesser tp jump to cost me 36pec, because most of the time I need to do 3 to get to place I need to be.
Crazy how some people whine about "MA stealing their peds with clothes/armor" decay, while I would blow that same amount ped during one hunt I would have decay of armor in my whole EU life.
So no, a sweat cap would only cause more stress on the depositors. Frankly I wouldn't even care about making a second ava. I'll just back down playing I guess. I want to be able to sweat my own sweat, Nexus is expensive enough as it is.
just my :twocents:
 
...first question i have to those who want the sweat cap back for newbies, so the price gonna get higher will be

"why dont you buy it simply at 3.0 already now?"
best you scan the person before, to be a bit more sure if it looks like newbie though

but why do you need a cap for that? ^.-

That pretty much sums it up for me... if anyone feel that strongly about helping out noobs, then buy the sweat for a higher price to show your support. And for the record, I do this. I scan them first of course ;)

I also agree that if there was a MF update that made MF more desirable to use I am sure it would become more valuable. To me, that is the key.
 
No sweat caps, please.

Let ppl complain about sweat prices...but a few years ago FN was 280% and ME cost between 420% & 450%. You can be ME for 200% now regularly.
 
Captain Mak

You may want to take a look at the story I wrote in Calypso Post issues 4 and 5 (2 parts) called a "Brief History of Sweat".

Its essentially a fictional spin on the facts surrounding the real life (ok virtual life) economics of sweat as I have observed them over the last 3.5 years or so.

Its probably been said many times already (sorry neg me but I didn't read all this time) but you can pretty much guarantee that someone will always come along and make a case to increase the price of sweat (I assume that is what you are doing?)

If the cap went on yes the price would go up but not for long and we would soon hit deadlock again (this is mentioned in the story). The reality is that sweat has to be low for MF to be feasible. The only way for this to happen is to make it widely available.

As regards new players not making enough cash due to the low price many people will tell you that you can make A LOT more cash sweating now than you could in the past. Yes the price has dropped to around a third of what it used to be but the ease of obtaining has gone up something like tenfold.

Hope you read the story
Wistrel
 
I also agree that if there was a MF update that made MF more desirable to use I am sure it would become more valuable. To me, that is the key.

A few ideas have been posted regarding this too *chuckles* ...
Lets hope something gets done in the near future,
MF abilities are a shocker at this time in EU.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/wishlist/91956-unified-yet-decentralised-dependancy-various-subsystems.html

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/wishlist/91976-mindforce-enhancements-new-gem-based-crafted-line-goods.html

~ Sparkz
 
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