FYI: UL non-SIB weapons are still viable options

[Futurama]

I think some weapons might be better on some mobs then others. Even the name and descriptions of some weapons suggest that.

for example ARR = Anti Robot Rifle if i remember correctly. Suggesting that this weapontype is specifically designed to do robots with.

Never had the opportunity or willingness to fully test that though.
To get a more full picture the test should be expanded to doing similar runs on other mobs/bots.

Just an idea.

Cheers
Siam

Its called background story and storyline...

 

[remontoire]

I get the distinct feeling that the thread has gone off in lots of odd and unexpected directions. "Using to a good effect" in no way means "better in each and every respect", "just as good as" or even "will do as well in general usage".

I can use a UL non-SIB to a good effect as tagger, a range enhancer helps. I could probably use a UL non-SIB melee weapon as a finisher to take of one strikes worth of hp from a mob to a good effect. Eco is not really relevant to the first case (the gain is being able to tag from a more secure location) and only slightly to the second one, IMHO.

 

[Xen]

For those that apparently do not know JC well enough to know what his statement meant, I will translate.

"I have done multiple tests with two similar dps guns of the same weapon type (i.e. laser pistol). One of these was UL non-sib, and the other was L sib. I have conducted these tests keeping all things exactly the same in every test except which gun I have used. I have used ample amount of ammo to ensure an accurate result, and rotated between the guns every test, i.e. run 1: gun A, run2: gun B, run 3: gun A, etc, etc. Based on my profession level for these guns and the setup I used, and taking MU for the L weapon into account, the non-sib gun was relatively similar in eco, or somewhat better. I am not at lvl 70 profession level for hit or dmg for this gun."

How close did I get, JC?

In that case, he did the test wrong. You need to use the maxed L for a long period of time (lots of peds), and then the unl non-sib for a long period of time, not mix them. Loot returns in short runs means nothing.

 

[nutrageti]

recently switched to an ewe 21 as result of frustration in the face of L weapons mu and high tt (fyi: absolute noob, no skills) and after several hunts I can say overall there wasn't any visible difference in profit and skills. i'm sure on the long run L might be better but when you have to choose between repairing a pistol for 30 ped and buying ammo for 170 ped or paying 200 ped for a L wep i'd choose unL

 

[Mac]

recently switched to an ewe 21 as result of frustration in the face of L weapons mu and high tt (fyi: absolute noob, no skills) and after several hunts I can say overall there wasn't any visible difference in profit and skills. i'm sure on the long run L might be better but when you have to choose between repairing a pistol for 30 ped and buying ammo for 170 ped or paying 200 ped for a L wep i'd choose unL

Kind of a perception is reality thing.

If you repair your wep after each hunt, it is small increments of your ped to do so and so it doesn't hurt so much to do it, but when you have to pop for a whole new L weapon its a big chunk all at once and you really notice it.

I haven't been very scientific, but I have been trying to follow the sib weps to get my skills back after I sold out to zero. There was a gap between sib weps for my level a few weeks ago, so I bought a similar dmg UL pistol. I really didn't notice any difference in skill gain one way or another. It might have been there if I was watching every pec and measuring skills with all the tools and calculators, but I didn't really notice it.

I must admit, I wasn't sold on this whole sib L thing since I came back after it had all changed, but its kind of fun to follow the sib thing as you watch your skills progress. But I also like to just pop my weps in and repair after each hunt too and not have to spend time in front of the auctioneer trying to find the best price on some L looted item that is never there when you need it, so its a toss up for me at this point. So now I have a mix.

Like others have said, each has its place for what your trying to accomplish at the time, you just have to spend the money and figure out what is working for you.

 

[Spawn]

Wasn't level 70 the level where the axe 2x0 was as eco as a korrs h400 [L]?

 

[aboo]

Wasn't level 70 the level where the axe 2x0 was as eco as a korrs h400 [L]?

Not if the Korss is say 113% and has a good A amp on it.

Off the top of my head, I'd think you'd need lvl 85-90 dmg and hit to be the same eco with the axe.

I'm level 78 and 75 laser pistol hit and dmg, and the i2870+a105 has an avg eco of around 2.824, whereas the korss(113%)+a105 is over 2.900. The i2870+a105 being of a similar eco as the axe.

 

[Doer]

Not if Korss is say 113% and has a good A amp on it.

Off the top of my head, I'd think you'd need lvl 85-90 dmg and hit to be the same eco with the axe.

I'm level 78 and 75 laser pistol hit and dmg, and i2870+a105 is still only avg eco of around 2.824, whereas the korss(113%)+a105 is over 2.900.

That sounds about right. Amped imk2 isn't clearly the winner in eco until sometime after 70/70. However, even at 60/60 it's still as good or better than most SIBs, especially those near its level of dps.

 

[jjmatrix]

1) skill would be totally useless.
2) dmg/pec would be totally useless.
3) markup on (L) guns would not be worth it.

So basically, the whole game would be ruined and the economy gone. Nobody is going to spend (much) money on gear or skills when it would not matter anyway.

What makes you say that skills would be totally useless? If you're a total noob but have the cash for let's say IMK2... how good would that do to you (aside from an investment perspective)?
Without skills, you're only going to able to kill Daikibas... only faster ; you won't be able to take on big mobs.

As for MU on L guns, the way I see it is that you buy a relatively cheap high-damage weapon, that otherwise you won't be able to find/buy an UL damage equivalent for a reasonable price.

Also, did you check my thread? There is some data in there; I know it's not much, but I also know it's more than suppositions and theories.
I obviously cannot say for a fact that my test proves anything, but it's a start. Some more like it, and we would have something to talk about .

 

[Charlie Gloom]

I was always a L user. For SGA I opted to use delta with beast amp for all of SGA. I kept primitive logs of every days totals. The only noticeable difference I can see in my logs were the loot swings.

In unl I would lose more peds then gain more back in series of globals etc. In using L guns I tended to personally show I got slightly more average returns on runs and a slightly less roller coaster feel. both ended in near 90% returns. For now I back to L as I feel it is more stable.

 

[layla54]

I could light my penis on fire if I so chose to.

That's all I'll say

well IF you do:
screenies, or it didn't happen



L

 

[Witte]

What makes you say that skills would be totally useless? If you're a total noob but have the cash for let's say IMK2... how good would that do to you (aside from an investment perspective)?
Without skills, you're only going to able to kill Daikibas... only faster ; you won't be able to take on big mobs.

As for MU on L guns, the way I see it is that you buy a relatively cheap high-damage weapon, that otherwise you won't be able to find/buy an UL damage equivalent for a reasonable price.

Also, did you check my thread? There is some data in there; I know it's not much, but I also know it's more than suppositions and theories.
I obviously cannot say for a fact that my test proves anything, but it's a start. Some more like it, and we would have something to talk about .

All damage and hit related skill would be rather useless. Any newborn noob can buy a Maddox + Beast and do as good as someone with UL HL8 + 106 amp. Markup of these items would be next to 0. All A204 amps can be TTed and replaced by E15.

What I mean to say is that it would have an enormous impact on the depth of the game. Almost nothing would matter. Just pick any UL weapon at any level and you do as good as any other pick, and better than any (L). Of course it can work like that. But I think if this turns out to be the case, the game would die out soon.

As for your tests, they are only telling us that loot varies a lot, but we already knew that. One Apis (=1500PED) I end up -500, the next +500, without any special loots. Bad thing about the tests I have seen so far is that a relative eco UL weapon is used. You won't be able to measure a 10% difference when loot fluctuates up to 40%. Get these results with weapons that are 50% less eco, then it will definitely get my attention.

 

[TheSkilledOne]

You don't need lvl 70+ in order to use non-SIB weapons to good effect.





That's all I'll say.

obviously.

But when I use nonsib UL weapons I end up doing lower damage with fewer hits with higher ammo losses than I do while using SIB weapons Loot is the same either what I use. I'm sure others can use nonsib weapons and gain on it and still have high damage and lots of hits but I can't. And I'm talking of own experience :3

 

[layla54]

You don't need lvl 70+ in order to use non-SIB weapons to good effect.

loosely, my considered opinions on this are:

1/ This stuff is very hard to define, expensive to test, subject to huge swings in general loot, affected by your historical losses etc

2/ Everyone has their own opinion

3/ My opinion is that I agree with JC, to a certain extent
...but...
4/ Most of the time I use (L) maxed especially for bigger mobs

5/ I've found that a weapon-set with, for example, half the "eco", (therefore twice the "decay") does not give a long-term return the same level of loot as the control (L) weapon.(TT loot return) it gives somewhat more, with longterm useage, suggesting an `somewhat` automated avatar-based loot return system. It takes quite some time to re-adjust.

6/ more losses "into" a mob (eg: due to lower DPS so higher regen during time to kill) affect loot output `somewhat`, and item drops to a small extent (changes in types of oils looted etc)

7/ That `somewhat` varies hunt/hunt, day/day, week/week, month/month.

8/ Most people can't afford to test enough to give a large enough data set.
5000US$ is a reasonable input to test with, 100$ is certainly not.

9/ Wide-scale long-term multiple avatar studies would be needed to fully test

10/ For comparisons, only weapon-sets very closely matched in average damage per second are valid. eg: k400+a104, cb19+beast are similar on low-level mobs. (where a high enough evader prof negates advantage of 1 or 2 extra shots before tanking) but comparing that level of damage per second with a Kat. Det. at prof lvl 50 damage and hit is NOT acceptable (at a guess, it's about 10% underpowered?) so fap/armor decay is 10% more (with a blade, it's up close all the time) that will skew loot results by an unknown factor, not necessarily 10%

11/ Market "interests" skew opinions

12/ I believe that your PED outputs are broadly linked to your PED inputs
eg: 1000$ in, 900$ out, over a given "time of play". Cycle that again, and you get 90% return again, and so on, until you go broke.
I have my own anecdotal evidence to suggest this was not so rigid in years gone by.

13/ Various things affect uber loots, like: pure luck, time/place, tactics, past financial profile (in/out/spend/retention), public relations potential, and the infamous alleged "favoritism".

14/ Hunting wisely with good eco weapons seems to be far risky in the short term. Meaning: using non-L with low skills means you'll be consistently needing to depo more to keep going. It's not as bad as some people would have you think, but I'd recommend (L) until at least level 55-60.

15/ Using plain "eco" figures, some (L) weapons are better than many non-L ones even at level 90+. Eco is not the whole story; especially if you have, let's say, 20,000US$ to depo, it's largely irrelevant

16/ Skills gained should be viewed as "loot". Their amount varies greatly with the choice of weapon, in my experience.



Note: I don't research this stuff like I used to.
I've lost interest in the game the last year or so due to depressing returns and almost no markup items worth selling. Even an ATH wouldn't get me back on the level an more, it's been that bad in my experience. Ymmv.
I own various L, UnlimL (cheap ones) and non-L (oldskool) weapons. I'm past caring these days. My pedcard is always near zero. No-one reads this stuff much anyways.

 

[Chrome]

No-one reads this stuff much anyways.

I do...

 

[jjmatrix]

All damage and hit related skill would be rather useless. Any newborn noob can buy a Maddox + Beast and do as good as someone with UL HL8 + 106 amp. Markup of these items would be next to 0. All A204 amps can be TTed and replaced by E15.

What I mean to say is that it would have an enormous impact on the depth of the game. Almost nothing would matter. Just pick any UL weapon at any level and you do as good as any other pick, and better than any (L). Of course it can work like that. But I think if this turns out to be the case, the game would die out soon.

As for your tests, they are only telling us that loot varies a lot, but we already knew that. One Apis (=1500PED) I end up -500, the next +500, without any special loots. Bad thing about the tests I have seen so far is that a relative eco UL weapon is used. You won't be able to measure a 10% difference when loot fluctuates up to 40%. Get these results with weapons that are 50% less eco, then it will definitely get my attention.

Fair points for sure; I got a bit carried away with the UL. I am not saying that UL are better than L; I should've used the phrase from my test thread, which I think defines my thoughts a lot more accurately: "I want to see if UL are as bad as many people think they are". There are many saying that you should never, ever use UL unless your HA is at least 9; personally, I think they are wrong.
And you're right, my choice of UL guns was somehow eco, but my goal was to match the damage/sec of the some of the most used L pistols.

PS Current;y I'm tryin to get my head around your entropedia tools - where it says that dmg/pec is calculated by MU of weapon+amp+ammo. Dmg/pec for HL8+106 gets a lot better despite the fact that the amp's MU is 8500%, and the gun's MU is 131%.
Trying the same for just the amp, doesn't return any results when the button is clicked. Maybe I'm doing something wrong . I'll be back with more .

 

[Jennson]

... Dmg/pec for HL8+106 gets a lot better despite the fact that the amp's MU is 8500%, and the gun's MU is 131%....

Since this amp is not (L) MU doesn't matter for the dmg/pec calculation

 

[jjmatrix]

Since this amp is not (L) MU doesn't matter for the dmg/pec calculation

Is that right?

So... what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that you pay 10 PED or 10K PED for an UL item in it's economy?
Man... I got this all wrong then!

 

[SpikE Odets]

Is that right?

So... what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that you pay 10 PED or 10K PED for an UL item in it's economy?
Man... I got this all wrong then!

I would say it only matters if the market value goes below what you paid for it.. if you paid 10k and use it for 2 yrs and sell it for 10k its markup was 0% the entire time you used it.

SpikE

 

[Hurrikane]

I would say it only matters if the market value goes below what you paid for it.. if you paid 10k and use it for 2 yrs and sell it for 10k its markup was 0% the entire time you used it.

SpikE

Or if you're lucky, or have an eye for a good 'un... you get more back than you paid in the first place, and experience negative mark-up


Hurrikane

 

[Doer]

Is that right?

So... what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that you pay 10 PED or 10K PED for an UL item in it's economy?
Man... I got this all wrong then!

It only accounts for cost of usage, not cost of ownership. No database-driven webpage could possibly predict the cost of you buying, using, and then selling an amp at a future date.

Buying my A204 for a few k PEDs early in my gameplay was an example of a case where i will probably make a profit whenever i finally sell it. Buying phantom armor a couple years ago is an example of the opposite.

 

[JohnCapital]

Is that right?

So... what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that you pay 10 PED or 10K PED for an UL item in it's economy?
Man... I got this all wrong then!

That issue is simple to explain:

Having an (L) amp/gun/whatever, we have a full TT, and decay rate and avg. % MU known (usually) and we can easily apply these figures to determine real cost/use.

Example: coolamp(L) gives 1,000 shots and is 100 ped TT. TT-wise, that's 0.10/shot. But if that amp sells for 200%, we know the cost/shot is 0.20/shot.

However, with an UL item, we have no idea what the market value was when you bought it, (did you pay +10 or +100? I've bought A104s at both prices) or how much you used it, (used it 10 full times? 100? 2,000?) or how much it will be when you sell it. There is no formula whatsoever that can account for those variables.

So for UL items, it's just simpler to figure "eco" or cost/use based on TT, and ignore MU. But with (L) items since use and cost can be assumed, a generic cost/use figuring MU can be applied.

However, keep in mind those figures assume a full TT item. An apis bought for the same MU but only having 40% left, is a slightly higher cost/use.

 

[jjmatrix]

It only accounts for cost of usage, not cost of ownership. No database-driven webpage could possibly predict the cost of you buying, using, and then selling an amp at a future date....

Thank you for the explanation; you're right... it can't; however, how does the "Custom MU" box work for L?

That issue is simple to explain:

Having an (L) amp/gun/whatever, we have a full TT, and decay rate and avg. % MU known (usually) and we can easily apply these figures to determine real cost/use.

Example: coolamp(L) gives 1,000 shots and is 100 ped TT. TT-wise, that's 0.10/shot. But if that amp sells for 200%, we know the cost/shot is 0.20/shot.

However, with an UL item, we have no idea what the market value was when you bought it, (did you pay +10 or +100? I've bought A104s at both prices) or how much you used it, (used it 10 full times? 100? 2,000?) or how much it will be when you sell it. There is no formula whatsoever that can account for those variables.

So for UL items, it's just simpler to figure "eco" or cost/use based on TT, and ignore MU. But with (L) items since use and cost can be assumed, a generic cost/use figuring MU can be applied.

However, keep in mind those figures assume a full TT item. An apis bought for the same MU but only having 40% left, is a slightly higher cost/use.

Ty JC; it makes sense what you're saying... minus the formula bit.
Whay can't you have two custom input boxes: "MU Paid" and "Uses per 24 hrs", and derive a result from there. It won't be extremely accurate since you cannot known how much time you'll spend in-game, but it can give you an idea.

At least, we should have something along the lines: "What would my dmg/pec would be if I paid XX MU, and I intend to use this item YY number of time per day?"

I might be "out-of-line" here, but only because comparing L and UL dmg/pec using entropedia is not exactly right.
All I'm trying to do/say is that a better solution is needed, even though everybody seems to think there isn't one .

 

[JohnCapital]

Whay can't you have two custom input boxes: "MU Paid" and "Uses per 24 hrs", and derive a result from there.

No problem. All you have to do is also list when you'll sell it and for what price.

Selling for +100 or -100 what you paid makes a big difference on the factors, plus whether you sell it next month or Nov. 13, 2012.

I know what you're trying to accomplish, but the fact is MU on UL items is simply not a good factor when figuring hunting economy. That's an economic issue, not dmg/pec.

Yes it's counter-intuitive, considering that's exactly what we're doing w/ (L) items, but the difference is simple: When I use something, that use and the MU I paid is gone.

 

[FallenAngel]

However, keep in mind those figures assume a full TT item. An apis bought for the same MU but only having 40% left, is a slightly higher cost/use.

just in case some people dont know you can use this site/link to calculate the real damage/pec for L weapons that are not at full tt.

http://entropiatools.com/avgdmgpec.php

Thank you for the explanation; you're right... it can't; however, how does the "Custom MU" box work for L?

the custom markup box lets you input the markup you payed instead of the average markup (which doesnt include buyouts afaik), the link i posted above works better for comparing the economy of weapons imho.

and on the topic of L or unlimited at "low" skills, i did a fair bit of team hunting with a socmate, mostly hunting mobs with 1k hitpoints or more, him in plated jag,ek2600,medium health and lvl 50 hit/damage with a karma killer+a104, me in plated shogun,T20,less skills with a p5a+104, 200 ped ammo each.
when his ammo was finished i had about 10 ped ammo left and when we compared decay/loot at the end of the hunt i was always a lot more positive than he was..

 

[FallenAngel]

I know what you're trying to accomplish, but the fact is MU on UL items is simply not a good factor when figuring hunting economy. That's an economic issue, not dmg/pec.

it looks like his interest is economic, he wants a return on investment calculation comparing L weapons with UL items?

but the game being what it is i think that would be interesting/handy too.

 

[Mac]

You don't need lvl 70+ in order to use non-SIB weapons to good effect.


That's all I'll say.

Still waiting for JohnCapital to specifically define "Good Effect".

 

[JohnCapital]

Still waiting for JohnCapital to specifically define "Good Effect".

Sometimes a feather is just a feather.

 

[Hijacker27]

So what you're saying is that yes, I CAN shoot an UL non-SIB, and I CAN do damage with it. This is a good effect.

Doesn't make it as efficient or as effective as using a (L) weapon where I'm more likely to hit and more likely to do a higher amount of damage.

 

[Mac]

So what you're saying is that yes, I CAN shoot an UL non-SIB, and I CAN do damage with it. This is a good effect.

Doesn't make it as efficient or as effective as using a (L) weapon where I'm more likely to hit and more likely to do a higher amount of damage.

No,we don't know what good effect is.

But we apparently know that sometimes a feather is a feather.

And sometimes a troll is a troll