"VTOL-hunting" IS an exploit, now confirmed by support!

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I am sure whatever happens you will still be able to fly them. :yay:

Perhaps but it doesnt mean that I for one would want to fly Anymore or use it. I have the freedom still to drop it on auction and sell it. Or to a trader who wants it.

Or what if everyone who has one or many, out of mass protest just TT them all? Not that this would ever happen at all, just what-if?

Lets just say I would not be happy with certain benefits, these VTOLs give me, be removed. Even tho I never have used mine for Ping-ponging mobs. But I do like the safety from mobs feature when I climb into my VTOL, especially when I need to escape from a trox-prowler as a Miner. Its not right that so many should suffer from the exploits of a few bad players, or the very few complainers when they get their way. But I am still not so sure that is so bad either cos they burn ammo, take hits, and fap. MA is NOT losing out entirelly on decay either.

Sounds like a few, who cant exploit, and want to exploit, complain. So much for community cohesion against the house that always wins. Isnt a hunter using a fapper more of a exploit than what is being discussed here? Gives the hunter an edge in killing dasps for example. The number one uber in-games uses fappers and still suffers decay and a insane amount of ammoburn.
 
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Maska

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Well humans are still smarter than AI.
Whatever MA codes into AI will either ruin the game or still be out-witted by human intelligence.

So the real solution is following:

Hire people to play as mobs.

+ good for marketing and unemployment (all over the world)

win - win - win?
 

Smoerble

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That would be fun... unfortunately the netcode is modified, so it's not as good as it needs to be for a real PVM (Player vs Mob) game... but the idea is nice. But the ethics behind might become a problem for all the new political correctness: western world players hunt chinese school kids down... hm... any press is good press? :)
 

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Make it so the aggroed mob will jump in the VTOL with you, if it's close enough. :yay:

Then you must kill it with a TT powerfist, or lure it out with a roasted Gibnib. :wise:

"Your vehicle contains unauthorised passengers. Please remove the Argo Hunter before attempting to respawn" :laugh:
 

Maska

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Make it so the aggroed mob will jump in the VTOL with you, if it's close enough. :yay:

Then you must kill it with a TT powerfist, or lure it out with a roasted Gibnib. :wise:

"Your vehicle contains unauthorised passengers. Please remove the Argo Hunter before attempting to respawn" :laugh:

Better yet, if the mob is faster than you, it will steal your VTOL, fly to twin peaks, sell it for under market value, buy beers for all the other mobs, make a gang attack on twin peaks and take all the low paying "traders" hostage, lock them up in a cave and never let them out. Then the mobs go back to their usual business of pissing on the trees.

Win - win again?
 

True Juan

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Better yet, if the mob is faster than you, it will steal your VTOL, fly to twin peaks, sell it for under market value, buy beers for all the other mobs, make a gang attack on twin peaks and take all the low paying "traders" hostage, lock them up in a cave and never let them out. Then the mobs go back to their usual business of pissing on the trees.

Win - win again?

Now THAT sounds like an awesome game :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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Sounds like a few, who cant exploit, and want to exploit, complain.

Please don't think that humans are so petty. I think it is a lot more likely that (to put it in your words) people who could exploit don't want this exploit to exist for the sake of the game. I'm pretty sure about everybody in this thread has a Sleipnir. They cost next to nothing.
 

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This is wrong, there is an easy test to see this. E-15 amp on tt hand gun amps loots up proportional to cost while damage is not amped up.

I think the game was changed right before planets arrived that changed the importance of eco and moved the game closer to a static tt return across the board regardless of the eco of that cost to kill. This was most likely done to guarantee income for planet partners and make it so ubers with super eco gear could not profit from them.


Loot is related to the amount of damage inflicted not with the cost to deal that damage.

This means that the cheaper you inflict the damage required to kill a mob the cheaper you get the loot from that mob.

This has been already tested.
 
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Smoerble

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Make it so the aggroed mob will jump in the VTOL with you, if it's close enough. :yay:

Then you must kill it with a TT powerfist, or lure it out with a roasted Gibnib. :wise:

"Your vehicle contains unauthorised passengers. Please remove the Argo Hunter before attempting to respawn" :laugh:

Please ask for a job at MA RIGHT NOW TODAY IMMIDIEATLEY (or however this stupid word is spelled), DO IT!
 
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Xen

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This is wrong, there is an easy test to see this. E-15 amp on tt hand gun amps loots up proportional to cost while damage is not amped up.

I think the game was changed right before planets arrived that changed the importance of eco and moved the game closer to a static tt return across the board regardless of the eco of that cost to kill. This was most likely done to guarantee income for planet partners and make it so ubers with super eco gear could not profit from them.

Care to test this theory yourself, with maybe a swine deluxe, or if you can't get one of those, maybe a clericdagger 3C, then report the results over say 10k+ peds tt?

I'm not saying I totally disagree with this theory of tt return at least partially related to tt spent, but I have yet to see someone making this assertion willing to conduct an extensive test themselves...
 

PopFuzz

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Im not 10/10 so I still get some penalty on missed hits. After doing a 8K ped test with Moddox IV a few weeks ago. My returns were about 2-3% less then expected (77% TT return) and I attribute that to the missed hits not the dmg penalty (I should have seen 10% or worse return due to dmg penalty) Also all my experience with sib weapons have shown me that my loot is within normal parameters when Im in dmg sib.

Also I have shot about 6K-7K peds now with TT hand gun and e15 amp. results near 80% tt not great but ive seen 80% tt for 4 months straight now on all activities so within normal parameter to me. Also considering that it is .494 eco. if eco matters I should be only getting 10-20% tt return at best.

I owned an unlimited Genesis firefly for about 6 months and I hunted pretty hardcore with it moving my strength from 50 to over 70. When I fruit tested the eco came to 2.77 so I was a little pissed (someone listed eco as better on the wiki) and thought I would loose my ass off. Well I ended up at 90% tt in that time again no penalty but normal loot parameters to me.

I have used a few 3cs and have not had great results with them, but I do not have enough data on them to form an oppinion on them yet. I crafted them and burnt the tt off them so I have probably broken about 2-3K tt with I think about 70% tt returns. So datas too short for me to really form an oppionion, also my 45 knife hit may be low enough to give me a 10% penalty.

After alot of testing I really do feel eco does not matter on the base cost of the weapon if you are maxed on hit.

I would love to do more test with 3cs if I was maxed on it to really see what kind of tt returns I would see at 2.218 eco.

Anyway I do recommend burning an amp or two with tt handgun and e15 amp on a mob you know well and watch how the loots effected, It may really challenge the way you think the game runs, it really has for me.

Care to test this theory yourself, with maybe a swine deluxe, or if you can't get one of those, maybe a clericdagger 3C, then report the results over say 10k+ peds tt?

I'm not saying I totally disagree with this theory of tt return at least partially related to tt spent, but I have yet to see someone making this assertion willing to conduct an extensive test themselves...
 
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why should a mob be able to damage a steel spaceship ???

Because i would imagine in real life if you parked a "steel spaceship" beside a big ass robot, im sure if the robot would be smart enough to attack you in the first place, it wouldnt think... "uh shit what do i do now that hes inside that VTOL? I KNOW ill just stand here and look at him till he flies away" Im not sure this is how robots would actually think as iv never met one but its my best guess :)
 

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Another confirmation from support

Category: In-world (game play)
Subject of query: Other in-world questions
Deposit method:
Details: Dear Support,

i need a clear information about VTOL Hunting, because there are different information available. A friend of mine got a reply to his support case that VTOL Hunting isn't bug using. On the official forum is a thread where some guy says he got a support case where support says it is bug using.

Let me explain my view on VTOL Hunting
You take a long range weapon and shoot the mob till it gets close to you, than you use the feature of the VTOL to jump in. In this case the mob lose his track on you and did not attack the VTOL.
Now you start your VTOL and fly some 100 meters to a free spot, jump out and start shooting again. You repeat with jump in and fly away till the mob is down and you can loot it.


It should be easy to inform the settlers if this is allowed or if this is bug using. Because the fact that mobs lose there focus is not a bug it is a feature of the VTOL.
..........................
Solution
Solved:
(Dec 16, 2010 11:46 PM GMT)

Hi again,

Thank you for your patience.

I have been informed that to hunt mobs this way is considered an exploit. Yes, it is official now. Hanne should also be aware of this decision.

Kind regards,

Myriam | Planet Calypso Support


regards
 

LeWolf86

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So if i tank lets say a warlock "normally", and you use an ML-35, then jump into a VTOL every time it gets close, fly away and do it again until dead... or ping-pong it with a friend using VTOL to not get hit, jumping in every time it gets close, or trap it, or or or.
You actually think youre taking extra peds from MA and my loot stays the same as always?... Think again.
And no your not "playing against the house", the house takes a cut every day regardless how you and i do, and if we do well, then another player will have to pay for it, not MA. Only possible way to "hurt" MA/FPC economically is to not deposit/withdraw, since what you do ingame has zero impact on how much they earn, since they already have the RL money.
That means you play against me, and im sorry but personally i get pissed when you cheat ("you" as in any player doing this, purely fictional example), since that makes it harder for anyone else playing "by the rules" to have a chance in here, not like its easy anyway.

There will be "X" amount of peds available to pay out on any given period of time, and if you hunt cheaper than the game is designed for it to be possible, the ones that pay for that will be players that dont use some sort of sploit.

Now how do i know this? Simple, think of the 1X0 axes.
They were eco beyond insanity, which was ok to begin with since they were designed only for absolute newbies to use as a step on the way.
But when people noticed it was easy to profit with them, which led to like 70% of the game beginning to use those and what happened?
All fine and well there besides one "small" thing: While people were using the axes anyone using anything else was so fucked it was unbelievable loot wise.
Now im sure alot would say "boohoo you should have used the axes then", but if everyone had moved to axes that would mean what... that everyone profited? ;)

Think about it.

Exploits/bugs/tricks/whatever only work if very few people use i
t. If it turns into something everyone uses the system will react and even it all out.
No i dont think it matters much to ingame Eco if 10 people do this (or any other exploit). Now if hundreds start doing it (and i think its in that range by now tbh) it will fuck it up not only for the "ubers" whatever the hell thats supposed to mean by now, but for everyone.

Btw I think most of us can agree that the system could be alot more challenging like some state, with the possibility to maybe track, trap, sneak etcetc options for hunting. What i dont get though is how does that automatically translate to it being ok to make your own rules up/break the existing ones?
Thats pretty much like saying its ok to rob someone (without any further comparison), since you think the law is stupid irl, and you should therefor be allowed since you noticed it was possible and profitable.

Oh and another btw, i dont think anyone wants to take away the useability of the VTOL's for escaping mobtrains and similar, neither players or developers.
Would say theres a pretty good chance of that being the reason there is no fix yet? Since they want to do it right? At least i hope so.

Again though the post was mostly ment as info, so people know theres a risk in what they are doing, since both me and alot of other people that sent cases in to find out if this was a "feature" or a mistake, were told its a lockable/bannable offence.

Would piss me off as bad as anyone else to suddenly get a mail with a warning, or saying im locked for doing something i didn't know was wrong, and where the only info source was some post on a forum its not sure i even visit.
And on top of that a post ages after the problem was known, since its taken over a month to get a response.

That and to again ask that our dear developer gods:
As a general thing, please post info like this where everyone can read it, so all knows asap if there is something they're not allowed to do. No wonder people think its all right to do whatever the way it is atm...

K working my way up from this to start with.


There are millions of theories on how loot is distributed... we dont know if its personal or wide spread.

Next up.... you act like them exploiting is draining or reducing their loot to you.... infact IMO thatd be wrong because instead of blasting low - mid mobs... they are spending loads of cash together to kill big mobs... which in turn is more PED in the pool. Yes they aren't giving as much decay.... but aside from decay they are still putting bullets into it.
 

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Somewhy this all reminds me of this:
 

Shimmer

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Supportcase sent in a while ago by a member of soc:

Case Description
Category: In-world (game play)
Subject of query: Abuse or Harassment
Deposit method:
Details: I have a very simple question...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Using a VTOL hunting in team have been used a lot lately. You can escape attack by jumping into a VTOL while team-members that are out of range of mob attack are shooting and when mob attack the ones shooting-they jump into a VTOL...in-game this is called pingpong'ing. Nothing wrong with that BEFORE VTOL's that can't be attacked arrived, but now when people use this( I must assume not foreseen exploit) it's ridiculous.

So the very simple question is :
Is this allowed according EULA or is it not?

----------------------------------------------------------------
And the answer:
(Dec 1, 2010 10:21 PM GMT)

Hi,

Thank you for your patience. I have been informed that our developing team is now aware of problems with the vehicles being used to gain an advantage over others, which makes them exploitable in certain ways and are currently working on a solution to fix this, however we can not offer you an exact time for this to be fixed.

Using exploits to obtain economic advantages is a behaviour which is certainly in violation of the EULA and all participants are obliged to report bugs and exploits when found. If you do not report such exploits or bugs and if you or any other participant is found taken advantage of this situations, you run the risk of getting your account locked.

Kind regards,

Leslie | Planet Calypso Support

----------------------------------------------------------------

Now i wonder... since you (you=MA/FPC) must have known about this for ages (been a good while since this and other supportcases were sent in...), why did you not publicly state on forums and in the CL that this is a bannable/lockable offence immediately!?!

Did the whole space trapping thing, and alot of other similar situations through time, where people exploit like theres no tomorrow, often blaming it on ignorance teach you nothing?

Again: Some will always exploit whatever they can since they feel theyre "allowed to use whatever means possible to get an edge" to beat the game so to speak.
Somewhere i could maybe understand that standpoint if the "fight" was against MA/FPC. Sadly its not, since any economic advantage you may achieve by using exploits, means other players have to lose more so you can lose less/earn more, it wont decide how much MA pays out, only the distribution.
One sadly cant do much about that "philosophy" i guess, but atleast id like to think its only a small part of players that feel like that.

But by saying nothing when a massive exploit/flaw like this gets detected (and especially since it might have been foreseen that being invincible could be a problem?...:rolleyes:) will also always make normal players use it since "well if MA/PFC say nothing, then it must be ok, right?"
Its not really that strange that people adapt to it now is it. They see others doing it without any sanctions, MA/FPC dont react to it, so in the end they do it as well to not be left behind/at@disadvantage, which is where it ends in total fail...

Put those 2 options together, and you got a mix of people exploiting the economy, and the only ones left to pay for it are the ones that dont use it.

So again, like i did in posts in the past, i beg you to change policy on this:

Have the decency to clearly state what we can and can not do when stuff like this comes to your attention!
It cant be that hard to put 10 lines of text somewhere so people know beyond a doubt what theyre allowed to do, or rather especially what not to do, now can it..
At least instead of the insane amount of shit you get, and huge mass of pissed off players after something like this has been going on for months with you knowing it and doing nothing, its gotta be worth it to have someone quickly update the community...

Im aware some bugs etc might not be wise to put on forums yes, but "general" stuff like this i cant see the harm. Not like its a secret to anyone that people do this.

Oh and to mods: I put it in general since this touches a shitload of different aspects ingame (economy, bugs, exploits, dev info etc), but if you feel it should be somewhere else feel free to move it.

If it gets fixed, it was a bug. If it doesn't get fixed... it's not a bug. Clear now?
 

GoNi

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Well it is cleared that it is an exploit as mobs lose focus on you entering a VTOL.

What about the other vehicles that can be hit by mobs?

Is hit and run allowed using a valkyre?
 

Terminator

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I can send many messages to Support to have new exploits made official!



"Hi Support, is it allowed to outrun mobs which attack us? FYI, outrunning them produce les decay and their is a potential loss for MA/FPC."

"Hi Support, is it allowed to drown mobs which attack us? FYI, killing mobs this way is free for us, so their is a potential loss for MA/FPC."

"Hi Support, is it allowed to heal with a T1 between mobs? FYI, healing with a T1 instead of a 2600 reduces our costs, so their is a potential loss for MA/FPC."

"Hi Support, is it allowed to have a healer? FYI, having a healer allow us to focus on shooting and reduce the regen, so their is a potential loss for MA/FPC."


Etc... There are hundreds of way to save PECs here and there. Are they exploit as well?


Are you simply concerned by the MU of your long range weapon?
 

Ardorj

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I haven't read the entire thread, but want to say : isn't it an option to have vehicles only spawn in garages and docks near cities? Same as what was possible with pets and the stables. You can still use vehicles for what it is meant for : going fast from one place to another.

Having three rifles, two guns, a sword and a FAP in your left pocket just isn't guite the same as having a 13,2kg VTOL in your right pocket.

:confused::broke::confused:
 
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Having three rifles, two guns, a sword and a FAP in your left pocket just isn't guite the same as having a 13,2kg VTOL in your right pocket.

Is that a Sleipnir in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? :ahh:
 

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I have like a lot of others asked support.

And yes it is still unofficial (MA dont care to make an official statement) an exploit to hunt mobs using not only a VTOL but to use any VEHICLE. So you are not allowed to use a car to drive out of range and continue shooting.

So now we are at the state that if you have a spawned vehicle next to you while hunting some might take you as potential will use the vehicle to escape the mob......

So next will prolly be an exploit to use ping pong (there is no difference in ping pong hunting and use a vehicle to drive out of range) to hunt mob - i better ask support if it will be ok to do
 
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Parlog

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newest exploit i have seen is tree rubbing! Its 4 times faster for skilling repair skills than freefall crashing and way more eco than shooting your vehicle to zero:yup:
 

mastermesh

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newest exploit i have seen is tree rubbing! Its 4 times faster for skilling repair skills than freefall crashing and way more eco than shooting your vehicle to zero:yup:
Yep. That's a major bug because people can repair the vehicle to get up to bpc quicker. They better fix that bug. Just make it so that vehicles take no damage from environment, only from mobs and other avatars and all will be well again. ;)
 

Bear

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Yep. That's a major bug because people can repair the vehicle to get up to bpc quicker. They better fix that bug. Just make it so that vehicles take no damage from environment, only from mobs and other avatars and all will be well again. ;)

Yeah.. they should just decay the PED Cards iteself so MA gets paid in anycase (unless you card is at Zero allready) :yup:
 

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Not sure if anyone else does this but when hunting I dont use armour nor a fap and I move backwards spinning. So in the time my gun is reloading the next shot I spin around, running away from the mob and quickly spin back in time for the next shot. It takes a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, you can kill a suprisingly large number of mobs for somewhat cheap with an appropriately long ranged and slow firing weapon (though I can do it with the Opalo also).

This to me is being damn resourceful, using IRL skills and completely within the bounds of the system (i.e. not taking advantage of any particular feature).

Now is this an exploit?!!?

I have a feeling MA would say 'yes'...stupid.
 

Yquem

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Not sure if anyone else does this but when hunting I dont use armour nor a fap and I move backwards spinning. So in the time my gun is reloading the next shot I spin around, running away from the mob and quickly spin back in time for the next shot. It takes a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, you can kill a suprisingly large number of mobs for somewhat cheap with an appropriately long ranged and slow firing weapon (though I can do it with the Opalo also).

This to me is being damn resourceful, using IRL skills and completely within the bounds of the system (i.e. not taking advantage of any particular feature).

Now is this an exploit?!!?

I have a feeling MA would say 'yes'...stupid.

ofc it is - you have to decay as much as possible when hunting.
 
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Is you seriously think there is no advantage in being able to hunt any mob in the universe without armour or FAP decay, and without having to worry about being killed, you've failed badly to understand how EU works.

Best reply i've seen so far. There is no logical reason for vtols not causing mobs to aggro. I can see why this could be used to form mob trains, but perhaps making the stratosphere outside towns pvp could solve it.
 

Coop_

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This to me is being damn resourceful, using IRL skills and completely within the bounds of the system (i.e. not taking advantage of any particular feature).

Now is this an exploit?!!?

No. Mob stays agroed on you, not trapped, fully within the system. I think you'd agree that the VTOL "trick" has a different flavor to it, at least.
 
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