Yog Pet Buff Issue

San

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No one on accident spawns and activates a mining buff in an instance where you can't mine.
I didn't want to offer an opinion on this because I never competed, but the logic here is so compelling it puts it beyond opinion. This wouldn't catch people who casually enter an instance and spawn their pet, forgetting the buff was still activated. Only those who used it all the time and won placements with it, they simply cannot have been clueless.

I can't say how cases from previous events should be handled where illicit winnings have dissipated through the market long ago. The thought of them getting away with it is gnawing though and doesn't make me want to change my mind about competing any time soon. Maybe the items exchanged for placement tokens obtained with this cheat should be restocked into the vendors and, when there is a chance, bought back from the market to be destroyed. You can then sue them for the damages. After all this is RCE, and with real cash come real consequences.
 
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MeiGDLing

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I spawn my lvl 17 Sasha all the time, in instances, when i craft. When it's lvl 20 i can get 12 HP for a week /40 ped.
Sure but do you turn its in crease pet and taming or increased focus gen buffs on? Idk about yog pets but when i had auto loot pet out during a mayhem run it was a pain as the model kept getting in the way and turning off my auto shoot. I gurantee you anyone doing a serious mayhem run would never spawn a useless pet with a useless ped eating buff active. Especially multiple times without doing it anywhere else for example.
 

DuckiX

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Most of noob players do not even know this pet exists. Its high end-skilled experienced and geared avatars who used this pet. I repeat, high skilled, experienced and high geared avatars. Those people know what they are doing, its not like someone's accidently did something, once... or twice.

There is also good chance they did pass the yog to their friends/moms/sisters/dogs/cats to use it on events, or anywhere else.

I believe this bug had massive impact on all of their actions and it certainly did impact the whole game/entropia community.

Without a doubt MA failed, as this bug was reported many times before and I have no idea what you guys will do about this but... you just cant say well, its bad but lets move on. When you create game where stats are capped, buffs give crazy advantages and some ppl find not only cheaper way to get more buffs, but also to bug the cap to get advantage over anyone else... I'm disappointed in your actions.
 
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San

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Most of noob players do not even this pet exists. Its high end-skilled experienced and geared avatars who used this pet. I repeat, high skilled, experienced and high geared avatars.
There is the Yog Hatchling which is abundant and has the same buff, only 10% instead of 25%. I don't know if it is/was exploitable in the same way but it would still be enough to get an edge over honest participants.
 

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Unban DannyO then!
 

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MA is right with this approach. It can and should compensate the people who were wronged. It can not however punish the people who used the pet in the instance.
First of all, if you try to ban someone for that, in a court they have a good argument that it is not their job to know if the buff was intended or not. There were a ton of items with attributes that were hidden, and people inferred those attributes by playing the game. This could simply be an instance of that case.

There are probably a ton of items with attributes that we can't see and in court they would have to disclose that. Using an item as is can not be a a good reason to ban someone. Players are not MA testing team.

Further more, a case can be made that the pet had a hidden feature that made it more valuable, and fixing the bug, actually ruined the value of the pet. The fact that the feature was intended or not, is not the point. It was there and it affected the economy.

Mayhem is not the only aspect of the game that was affected by this bug/feature. Every day hunting was as well. People using this pet in everyday hunting had a different experience than the rest of the people. It may have affected the returns, margins or whatever else, but we can't know that. To fix this, if other people lost income because some gained while using it in normal hunting, you plan to compensate all the players? I suppose it is not a feasible path forward.

A way to go about it is simply to treat it like the item had a feature and now it is nerfed. End of story. There is no clean way to solve this and whatever you do, some will get mad.
 

Evey

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MA is right with this approach. It can and should compensate the people who were wronged. It can not however punish the people who used the pet in the instance.
First of all, if you try to ban someone for that, in a court they have a good argument that it is not their job to know if the buff was intended or not. There were a ton of items with attributes that were hidden, and people inferred those attributes by playing the game. This could simply be an instance of that case.

There are probably a ton of items with attributes that we can't see and in court they would have to disclose that. Using an item as is can not be a a good reason to ban someone. Players are not MA testing team.

Further more, a case can be made that the pet had a hidden feature that made it more valuable, and fixing the bug, actually ruined the value of the pet. The fact that the feature was intended or not, is not the point. It was there and it affected the economy.

Mayhem is not the only aspect of the game that was affected by this bug/feature. Every day hunting was as well. People using this pet in everyday hunting had a different experience than the rest of the people. It may have affected the returns, margins or whatever else, but we can't know that. To fix this, if other people lost income because some gained while using it in normal hunting, you plan to compensate all the players? I suppose it is not a feasible path forward.

A way to go about it is simply to treat it like the item had a feature and now it is nerfed. End of story. There is no clean way to solve this and whatever you do, some will get mad.
I agree it's complicated. I agree a ban would be very controversial, however, I strongly believe a temporary ban from Mayhem events is appropriate, especially when players have been found using it across multiple events.
 

SoberPhil

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I wonder how many of those extremely expensive weapons were obtained and sold by exploiters and how much money they were able to get away with (and possibly withdraw) by using this exploit. We'd know if UL items would show who their previous owners were, but we don't have that. I'd also like to say that I feel sorry for players who spent tons of PEDs on mayhem and did not get their desired outcomes due to exploiters.

And to those who seriously think that these exploiters will sue MA in case they get punished, you should really take a look at the ToS that you accept every time you login. The ToS have been carefully designed to leave no room for such lawsuits, and it's the right thing to do because otherwise we wouldn't have a game right now.
 

Cartoon Spoon

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MA is right with this approach. It can and should compensate the people who were wronged. It can not however punish the people who used the pet in the instance.
First of all, if you try to ban someone for that, in a court they have a good argument that it is not their job to know if the buff was intended or not.
Then, as this precedent is set, I will fully exploit ANY exploit I come across in the future WITHOUT reporting it as a bug.

This is the example MA HAS SET. And THIS will be the defence for any future exploit by me or anyone else.

An easy way out now will lead to a much bigger problem down the line..
For starters just go and scrap that TOA you have to agree to everytime you log in. They have been making us sign that for years, only for it now to have been proved worthless..

Throwing tokens at the players that were cheated, is a lazy, weak-minded, limp-wristed, sorry attempt, that tries to appease the players who either didn't know, or knew but didn't use the exploit. Whilst doing NOTHING to the ones who did know and fully exploited it, only saving the minimal of collateral damage (if any lets be honest).

Think about it. OMG so sad.
 

Hego Damask

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Then, as this precedent is set, I will fully exploit ANY exploit I come across in the future WITHOUT reporting it as a bug.

This is the example MA HAS SET. And THIS will be the defence for any future exploit by me or anyone else.

After this statement, i would be very surprised if similar would happen again.

They said: Ok, it was our fault this exploit lasted so long, and because of that and because we cant tell 100% sure about every one who ever used Yog pet, if he exploited or used it as a pet during the past 2 years, no one will be punished now.

I dont think they will be that generous with the next one in the future.
Do it as you said, you will be the next example they set up.

I would even bet they wish for a new exploit to show up soon, to ban the hell out of that exploiter and show to everybody that they care from now.
 

Cartoon Spoon

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After this statement, i would be very surprised if similar would happen again.

They said: Ok, it was our fault this exploit lasted so long, and because of that and because we cant tell 100% sure about every one who ever used Yog pet, if he exploited or used it as a pet during the past 2 years, no one will be punished now.

I dont think they will be that generous with the next one in the future.
Do it as you said, you will be the next example they set up.

I would even bet they wish for a new exploit to show up soon, to ban the hell out of that exploiter and show to everybody that they care from now.
You're hired!!! Coffee machine is in the hall, and you get extra hour for lunch on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday!!!;););)

My point is they should be punished. A ban on all Mayhems for at least a year or two might appease, but doing nothing.. That ain't gonna wash.

It seems that the general feeling is being overlooked, with some describing it as "entitlement"..
 

-JJ-

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lol for sure u guys are certainly an amusing passionate mob .. pitchforks and torches included ;]

but here are some fun facts some may not know

people are not perfect, and very few know exactly what they are doing in everything that they do
and its easy to assume that others do, especially if they appear to have a unfair advantage over u

unfortunately we do live in a unfair world where its not just what u know its who u know and more importantly
how much wealth u have to work with to try and turn things to ur advantage, there are some thats more or less
called the untouchables, these are the kind of people that have enuff knowledge, influence, and money and seem to
know who to target and what to pay so that blind eyes are turned to their actions, as it would not be in their targets
best interests to punish the people who they rely on to pay their wages supporting them and their families etc
but as with anything some secrets dont stay secrets forever and the only thing that can be done when its all out in the open
is to try to limit the damage done and appear to do the right thing trying to limit risk of financial, and reputation ruin

also its apparent that from what ive seen so far that either the game code is very difficult to work with, or that
mind ark has a very small team that only just know what they are doing since its not the 1st timt that something
has gotten broken or bugged in updates .. i even remember when the avatar creation section got broken lol

but anyways while its easy to go after people and demand justice its unfair to place all the blame on mind ark
as in some cases they are just as much the victims of such people that think that just cos they are rich and pay huge sums of money into the game that they can do whatever the heck they want and hold the game to ransom and profiting from their misdeeds and the community

some are questioning did mind ark do the right thing? well the thing is when there is real life cash involved that big elephant in the room cannot be ignored when trying to decide how to handle the situation ..things like how much do they consistently pay into the game and how much have they invested?
banning them can mean loss of income, and if there are many of these players then it can be a game killer
so sometimes justice can be just as damaging, does it make it right? ofc not we just have to hope that that majority of people
will do the right thing and not cheat and exploit others and treat others how they themselves would expect to be treated

i dont think mind ark are the bad guys in this, tho i think they could do better, i think they are just doing they best they can trying to take all things into consideration and provide a game we all can enjoy while also ofc trying to make money to support their staff and families etc

no i dont work for mind ark and benefit in no way shape or form from this post .. if anything this post may get me put on that shit list some talk about where i will be forever doomed to get crap returns lol

any1 that knows me knows im a strange wacky complicated person and sometimes should know when to stfu but i like to call things as i see it even it if may be detrimental to myself lol
im not rich like some on here but i do try to play with what ive got and enjoy playing having fun friends and making new 1s so i would hate to see the game die cos of some greedy twits

ps for those that dont like big reads just read the 1st line lol

have fun JJ ;]
 

dentx

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I'm guessing the number of ppl who have used the bug are in the 100`s in both mayham and all the other dps related events. As much as i think intentional use of bugs has to be banned, i'm guessing MA decided its much easier and possibly cheaper to give out tons of event tokens or some other rewards to everyone who might have lost a rank because of this.

If the support hadn't messed up and it was a month old bug i'm 99% sure everyone using it would be banned even before the official response.
Not really a fan of conspiracy theories that cant be proven and i'm possibly naive sometimes because of it, but i don't believe MA did this on purpose.
 

morfoc

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:popcorn::popcorn:

MA cannot do anything simply because their software is not able of providing real player logs.
Otherwise I don't see the point of not banning cheaters unless they have information that makes them untouchable.

everyone IS EQUAL of course, the simple fact that the CEO is a ancient player can cast doubt on fairness since this always remains in the same circle this kind of bug.
 

BackBone

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MA is right with this approach. It can and should compensate the people who were wronged. It can not however punish the people who used the pet in the instance.
First of all, if you try to ban someone for that, in a court they have a good argument that it is not their job to know if the buff was intended or not. There were a ton of items with attributes that were hidden, and people inferred those attributes by playing the game. This could simply be an instance of that case.

There are probably a ton of items with attributes that we can't see and in court they would have to disclose that. Using an item as is can not be a a good reason to ban someone. Players are not MA testing team.

Further more, a case can be made that the pet had a hidden feature that made it more valuable, and fixing the bug, actually ruined the value of the pet. The fact that the feature was intended or not, is not the point. It was there and it affected the economy.

Mayhem is not the only aspect of the game that was affected by this bug/feature. Every day hunting was as well. People using this pet in everyday hunting had a different experience than the rest of the people. It may have affected the returns, margins or whatever else, but we can't know that. To fix this, if other people lost income because some gained while using it in normal hunting, you plan to compensate all the players? I suppose it is not a feasible path forward.

A way to go about it is simply to treat it like the item had a feature and now it is nerfed. End of story. There is no clean way to solve this and whatever you do, some will get mad.
The price people were paying for the Yog clearly shows that they did know what they were buying!
 

Joat

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Let me make this clear as water for you the only reason you would spawn a mob like that inside the instance would be in 2 cases:

1st - Cheating if the buff was already unlocked

2nd - Skill up the pet to get the buff unlocked

So as you can see it's pretty easy find out who was using it for cheating...
Lets stick to same water, this is also clear as water:

If you can't prove it was done intentionally you can't make a full judgement.
Its quite obvious quality in both game and support is terrible here and there,
but that shouldn't be the case around the way to handle "legal" aspects,
last thing we need now is that MA start acting like a f-ing banana republic.
You shouldn't base judgement on assuming only, no matter how obvious the
wrongdoing is.

So, this isn't about punishment, its about proving the wrongdoing.
If they find a way to prove it, not by assume something, but that clearly proves
that they who cheated knew what they were doing, then there isn't much of
discussion, MA must act.
If they take actions that isn't based on facts and only assumptions, that can
backfire bigtime IRL.
 

morfoc

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Lets stick to same water, this is also clear as water:

If you can't prove it was done intentionally you can't make a full judgement.
Its quite obvious quality in both game and support is terrible here and there,
but that shouldn't be the case around the way to handle "legal" aspects,
last thing we need now is that MA start acting like a f-ing banana republic.
You shouldn't base judgement on assuming only, no matter how obvious the
wrongdoing is.

So, this isn't about punishment, its about proving the wrongdoing.
If they find a way to prove it, not by assume something, but that clearly proves
that they who cheated knew what they were doing, then there isn't much of
discussion, MA must act.
If they take actions that isn't based on facts and only assumptions, that can
backfire bigtime IRL.
it's so ridiculous, I don't see the interest of your post apart from saving your skin or that of some of your friends.
you signed the EU by agreeing to connect so you accept the rules imposed, you watched too much legal affairs on TV :laugh:
 

Xavier_Jr

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:popcorn::popcorn:

MA cannot do anything simply because their software is not able of providing real player logs.
Otherwise I don't see the point of not banning cheaters .

I think this is true. Mindark is not the bad boy. It is simply very expensive to have so many details in the databases.
 

Eli

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Cheaters keep what they cheated to get.

People who worked hard still get short changed....

Nothing new.
 

Joat

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it's so ridiculous, I don't see the interest of your post apart from saving your skin or that of some of your friends.
you signed the EU by agreeing to connect so you accept the rules imposed, you watched too much legal affairs on TV :laugh:
I find this quite funny actually. I mention something that MA shouldn't do due that
could backfire, and you pop up and derail it way off. :D
No I stick to rules no matter what, maybe thats why I don't even have Intuition after
17yrs in PE/EU. :D Same goes for those I call close friends, they stick to it too, but
are on the other hand not very active.

I'm a HSP, and if there is some sort of people I really don't like then its narcissists
and similar crap. Idiots that can't think in several layers, in several steps and who
believe they are center of the earth and rules don't apply to them.
Seen so much shit from some on this forum through these 17yrs, that today want to
be seen as someone with higher standards, but we do know what they did.
An example: In old PE there was a way to not get hit by drones if avatar was standing
in certain objects. Did mention this to MA, but without naming any players. I think I could
find both screens and (poor) vids with this, on one of all my stored HDDs.
For most of us (I hope) its quite clear that we should stick to rules, not just because
we have to due to EULA/ToU, but due to the standard we have.

The "interest of my post" is actually quite simple: MA shouldn't start using assumptions
as basis for their actions. Strong actions when it can be proved.
Some actions at least when it isn't 100% proved.
 

Justine

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What a shame...

It's all about TRUST. I put my money on your game MindArk. I trust you to manage it well and fair. But if you take my money and you give it to cheaters (cheaters = Robbers), i say NO !

When i see you know and you allow robbers to steal our money since 2.5 years, OMFG !
It's not only a mayhem issue, they used it in LG, shared loot and more. You gave them regular incomes with LG taxes, they steal our money on shared loot... And what ? You just only say sorry ?

I remain speechless
 

Fanan

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What a shame...

It's all about TRUST. I put my money on your game MindArk. I trust you to manage it well and fair. But if you take my money and you give it to cheaters (cheaters = Robbers), i say NO !

When i see you know and you allow robbers to steal our money since 2.5 years, OMFG !
It's not only a mayhem issue, they used it in LG, shared loot and more. You gave them regular incomes with LG taxes, they steal our money on shared loot... And what ? You just only say sorry ?

I remain speechless

Indeed!

It's not only on Mayhem events... Don't forget about it!


Unfortunately, after see so many injustices inside this game, nothing surprises me anymore.
 

Mega

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So, here is the question:

Now that you know you have unpunished cheaters amongst you, why would you compete in the Summer Olym.... Mayhem?

:launcher:
 

Ranyard

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So, here is the question:

Now that you know you have unpunished cheaters amongst you, why would you compete in the Summer Olym.... Mayhem?

:launcher:
Because I believe that, even over cheaters, sometime things become right and the underdog can still win..
 

BlackHawk

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I wonder how many of those extremely expensive weapons were obtained and sold by exploiters and how much money they were able to get away with (and possibly withdraw) by using this exploit. We'd know if UL items would show who their previous owners were, but we don't have that. I'd also like to say that I feel sorry for players who spent tons of PEDs on mayhem and did not get their desired outcomes due to exploiters.

And to those who seriously think that these exploiters will sue MA in case they get punished, you should really take a look at the ToS that you accept every time you login. The ToS have been carefully designed to leave no room for such lawsuits, and it's the right thing to do because otherwise we wouldn't have a game right now.
ToS tend not to hold up in court as you may think they will. Remember Runescape trials? If you lose money in a game because of some unfair system or some arbitrary rule, you can sue, whatever the ToS may say. You can claim you were wronged and a good lawyer can make a case out of it.
In games where property is not as clearly defined as having real value, the damaged party still got compensated. For example, check out this.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teen-steals-virtual-items-gets-real-punishment/

For this reason, all MA can do is fix the deal with people that were damaged by the bug, not with those who abused the bug, especially if they have the means to fight them in court. If you think about who enters in some of the higher levels of Mayhem, you can assume they can afford a lawyer, especially if they sue together in the same trial. Even if MA wins, it can get expensive and stupid.
 

BackBone

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I dont like to repeat myself, but in hopes that MA will read this, here goes:

1) Yog's prices clearly shows that who was buying knew exactly what they were used for!

2) No one would go into mayhem with a Yog if not to get the attack speed bonus.
 

Dessa

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Who would use a yog in mayhem if it weren't for the buff... seriously.
Nonsense. There is zero reason to have a Yog spawned with the buff active if not to deliberately abuse the bug.

If you can work out enough to fairly reward the people who suffered, you can work out enough to punish the people who cheated.

I'm afraid this response is undoing the good work you achieved with your response to the regen chip scandal. You are once again showing us all that cheats will prosper.
These quotes says it all.

So basically Mindark is saying its ok to cheat and exploit?
Im afraid that if you dont do more this will only encourage more exploiting and those who have exploited can laugh all the way to the bank..
I had hoped that they would clean out this mess once and for all. You now have the chance to regain players trust and confidence in the game.

I would guess this bug have also been used to tier up gear.

Cheating and exploiting is cancer for this game.
 
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