Yog Pet Buff Issue

Mega

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Due to the unintended Yog pet buff being available for such an extended period of time, despite support cases that should have resulted in the issue being addressed, and considering that it is not possible to definitively conclude that use of the pet was in every case intended to exploit the buff to gain an advantage, MindArk has decided it would be unfair and impractical to punish participants who directly or indirectly benefited from the unintended buff, for example stripping prizes awarded in previous Mayhem events.

What every player who didn't cheat is thinking, typing or saying in-game.

Wont work this time, but have a great weekend anyway!
 

Captain Jack

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I've kept my silence on this matter for a time. I wanted to wait for MindArk to comment and hopefully release some more information.
While I am thankful that it is promised that an investigation into past Mayhems will be conducted, I must say I am grossly disappointed with simply awarding additional tokens to players who may have been pushed down unfairly.

The damage that has been done here goes far beyond the tokens that were unfairly awarded to players who appear to have willfully and intentionally use this exploit as for personal benefit at the direct expense of others. No, the damage goes far beyond that.

When I was dialing in my Mayhem setup, I had a great selection of equipment to choose from. I chose to invest in top of the line gear, paying tens of thousands of PED for a 2% advantage here, or a 5% advantage there. I ended up 400K PED into my final setup. I justified that based on the presumption that walking into Mayhem with the best gear possible for my category would give me the best chances of winning. All that was left to me was to pay close attention to the mechanics of the competition itself, develop my tactics, and practice practice practice.

I did all that under the presumption that I was competing on a level playing field. If I had any notion that someone could get a 25-30% increase in DPS by exploiting a bug, I never would have invested so heavily into my gear.

I do not believe I am unique in having done this. I can't help but wonder how many dozens of other players poured tens of thousands of real dollars into this game under the false presumption of a fair competition.

The damage done here is not just a few thousand misplaced tokens.

The damage done is millions of PED invested into gear because people thought that if they just pushed their setup a little farther, they could match their competitors.

The damage done is hundreds of thousands of PED in Mayhem vendor prizes illegitimately claimed by players who exploited a bug to gain an insurmountable advantage, and then turned around and sold those vendor prizes for a profit.

The damage done is the incalculable loss of faith in the Mayhem competition system.

This is not a matter of a few thousand tokens. This is doubtlessly the greatest scandal of the decade with the most measurable damages done directly to the players.

I hope your investigation is thorough, and that you administer appropriate sanctions to fit the crime. Somehow I hope to regain confidence in the competition system again.
 

morfoc

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MA team for some time
they must have blocked everything related to EU on weekends

 

Raffaele Meiers

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exactly... leveling up pets takes time... and it makes boring activities like hunting more interesting since you have other buttons to click while between mobs or while on autotool with your weapon, etc. Some people even spawn pets in space... kind of glitchy seeing a oratan floating along outside of a ship but it happens.
Like GxB already said:

so you took your pet into the instance to level it. for that it doesnt need to have its buff active. did you activate its buff in the hunting instance?

Now answer it or stop using your flawed argument to reason the cheating of this yog pet users.

They had to take out the pet and pay nutrio for a effect they cant use in a hunting instance(acceleration of extraction speed), so they are in your view not cheaters but stupid people who spent nutrio for no gain but where suprised to get first place in the mayhem with their clever use of weapons and enhacers?
 

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Right thing to do?

- All skills archieved in the time of possesion of the yog's to be decreased by 50% (punishment even though point 2)
- Calculate a price / hour that is fair for the added reload speed, first penalty charge to pay
- Any prizes claimed that they wouldent have won if they dident use the pet to be paid back to mindark.

What if the item is sold on, and the peds have been spent?

That is simple. Account is locked untill the money is paid to mindark.
 

Boo Who You

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One thing that I don't quite understand still is how any hunter that used this pet with the buff could not notice it especially in the higher cats, they have been playing long enough to know how their gun shoots normally and buffed... (aka...they knew just what they were doing).

Personally, just off the sounds of my gun (rhythm of shots) or others hunting around me, I can tell if someone is using a reload buff...

Yet somehow these people managed to gain an extra 25% reload again 25%and yet, they did "not notice"? I know it's a long list...but not acting on this exploit is far up there on that list. Especially so close to the recent situation with DannyO, how he could be publicly crucified/punished and yet these exploiters go completely unpunished...

If I recall right, there was something recently about MA going public in 2021, hopefully our new investors don't find themselves looking at PCF. Otherwise, they will be subjected to one of two things, the historically corrupt MA or the historically incompetent MA.

Then again, maybe they have just been hunting with the buff active for so long they forgot how fast they really shoot :scratch:
 

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Yea, they didnt know, but once it stopped giving advantage they stopped using it huh?:wise:
 

NIckki

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"Along with the server hotfix which corrected the pet buff issue, Summer Mayhem scores for 12 participants were removed"

That nothing. And just think on 3 days summer mayhem already 12 participants use that bug! How much people use it in 2-3 week?

"Additionally, some participants have demanded a review of the results from previous Mayhem events where the unintended Yog pet buff may have provided an advantage, inadvertently or intentionally. We will be conducting this investigation over the next few weeks"

We all wait.
 

mastermesh

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Yet somehow these people managed to gain an extra 25% reload again 25%and yet, they did "not notice"? I know it's a long list...but not acting on this exploit is far up there on that list. Especially so close to the recent situation with DannyO, how he could be publicly crucified/punished and yet these exploiters go completely unpunished...
The difference is that the DannyO thing was something a Planet Partner was responsible for making happen, not Mindark itself, as is the case in this situation. Far easier for Mindark to point fingers at PP instead of taking responsibility for their own actions or inactions that cause exploits like this to happen far too often.

so you took your pet into the instance to level it. for that it doesnt need to have its buff active. did you activate its buff in the hunting instance?
some turn on the passive buffs and never turn them off. In the pet info screen thing it's simply an on and off switch after you level the pet high enough, pay the price to unlock, and meet the criteria...

I do agree with most of you that those that 'won' or got close to the top probably knew exactly what they were doing, but I suspect there were a few pet owners out there that didn't know what they were doing and now have a reset score. I was not one of them since I didn't participate in this round of mayhem, but yes, in some previous mayhems a little, but never actually took them seriously enough for it to matter to me personally...

Also, Mindark and everyone here is talking about the yog horror... but the hatchlings are out there in far greater numbers (and that's the one I have)... Mindark's not clarified which buff they 'fixed' or if they did it on both of them... Knowing Mindark, they just did the penalty and reset thing on the horror and not the thousands of hatchlings as well that may have the same exploit attached, just at a lower level... 10% instead of 25%... If they are including the hatchlings I suspect the number of avatars with reset score is going to be a hell of a log higher than only 12...
 

Ferial

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they must have blocked everything related to EU on weekends
To be fair though, this weekend is a Swedish holiday, so I wouldn't be too surprised if they only worked half a day on thursday.
 

Ferial

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some turn on the passive buffs and never turn them off. In the pet info screen thing it's simply an on and off switch after you level the pet high enough, pay the price to unlock, and meet the criteria...
This ^

I always have my bunny out, regardless of situation (since i do not own a pet with a buff that is better for me) since I use a relatively short range weapon. If it would turn out that a similar bug would exist with the bunny acceleration buff, I would have no idea. While I do not condone cheating in any way, we have to think twice about punishing people in this environment, since there is so much "invisible information" it might actually be hard to know if you're doing something wrong.

There is a difference though, i bring my pet out, because it gives me just the tiniest bit of advantage over not having it. I'm pretty sure there are very few people who would use a mining pet in a pure hunting environment, in which it gives ZERO benefit, but punishing people for accidentally doing something wrong would be almost as bad as punishing people for doing nothing wrong. Intent is often a hard thing to prove.

That being said, the wrongdoing has had an impact, probably greater than most people imagine. PM tokens have potentially been won by "the wrong people", Landgrabs: not very vested in this environment, but people are saying it has probably had a significant impact there.

But a lot of people disregard the impact this has had on the day to day game. These people, have not only been able to, potentially, acquire the "best" tools in game from illegimately winning events. They have also been able to cycle these "best" tools at a rate much faster than any legitimate player for a couple of years. So not only have they been able to reduce volatility illegimately, but also increased their chances of hitting multipliers with a bigger cycle, the impact is likely massive and one we'll never hear about.

EDIT: pardon the double post, i was certain someone would post something in the time it took me to write this post
 

Joat

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One thing that I don't quite understand still is how any hunter that used this pet with the buff could not notice it especially in the higher cats, they have been playing long enough to know how their gun shoots normally and buffed... (aka...they knew just what they were doing).

Personally, just off the sounds of my gun (rhythm of shots) or others hunting around me, I can tell if someone is using a reload buff...

Yet somehow these people managed to gain an extra 25% reload again 25%and yet, they did "not notice"? I know it's a long list...but not acting on this exploit is far up there on that list. Especially so close to the recent situation with DannyO, how he could be publicly crucified/punished and yet these exploiters go completely unpunished...

If I recall right, there was something recently about MA going public in 2021, hopefully our new investors don't find themselves looking at PCF. Otherwise, they will be subjected to one of two things, the historically corrupt MA or the historically incompetent MA.

Then again, maybe they have just been hunting with the buff active for so long they forgot how fast they really shoot :scratch:

My guess is that they knew, same with MA they also know what was going on, and vast majority
of community that are interested in this.
We can't be 100% sure though, since every individual are different, but still it looks highly unlikely
that they didn't know what to get when having the pet spawn.
The point here is that MA must be able to prove it also, in one way or another.

I'm not suprised if they could find chatlogs in the case of Danny that worked fine as proof
of that he knew exactly what to expect when using those chips.
A lot of time and discussion is saved when they can show this directly, since there is no doubt.

One thing to remember is that what MA write in forums and other places about what have
happened and so on, is not 100% of what they have done, know or do.
They give us what they see as "enough" of info.

A hypothetical scenario could be that they are able to find chat that indicate that 7 out of 12
knew, so not much to discuss, time for punshment. All 7 were not in top of any of those lists, the
remaining 5 were.
When those adjusted lists comes out, community will probably figure this out, and now the
shitstorm begins.
How many will accept that only those 7 at bottom are punished but not those 5 at top?
Conspiracy theories will begin again making players even more upset.
Question here is if MA are strong enough to go through this no matter what.
Once again, just a hypothetical scenario, but still something to think about when
elaborting scenarios that could happen. If not all 12 are punished, people will not
be pleased.
 

Boo Who You

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My guess is that they knew, same with MA they also know what was going on, and vast majority
of community that are interested in this.
We can't be 100% sure though, since every individual are different, but still it looks highly unlikely
that they didn't know what to get when having the pet spawn.
The point here is that MA must be able to prove it also, in one way or another.

I'm not suprised if they could find chatlogs in the case of Danny that worked fine as proof
of that he knew exactly what to expect when using those chips.
A lot of time and discussion is saved when they can show this directly, since there is no doubt.

One thing to remember is that what MA write in forums and other places about what have
happened and so on, is not 100% of what they have done, know or do.
They give us what they see as "enough" of info.

A hypothetical scenario could be that they are able to find chat that indicate that 7 out of 12
knew, so not much to discuss, time for punshment. All 7 were not in top of any of those lists, the
remaining 5 were.
When those adjusted lists comes out, community will probably figure this out, and now the
shitstorm begins.
How many will accept that only those 7 at bottom are punished but not those 5 at top?
Conspiracy theories will begin again making players even more upset.
Question here is if MA are strong enough to go through this no matter what.
Once again, just a hypothetical scenario, but still something to think about when
elaborting scenarios that could happen. If not all 12 are punished, people will not
be pleased.

In all honestly, I don't care about the people who used this outside of mayhem as much as those who used it inside of mayhem. I understand that there is a higher chance of catching people who are truly innocent and did not intend to exploit the Yog pet.

Mayhem is a different story: There are limited number of these pets in game. I'm sure that you could a single pet being past around between contestants. I can understand summoning a speed, auto-loot or maybe a reduce crit pet in mayhem, but summoning a mining pet with the buff active.. common now... The amount of nutrio bars that it would eat as well would not go unnoticed as well seeing as how the have a metabolic rate. Again, focusing solely on mayhem, there is more than enough information that could be gathered. Again too, a 25% increase in reload speed, how someone could not notice that in an event where you're trying to maximize this kinda stuff.

If MA is able to gather enough evidence to award someone for lost tokens due to another person exploiting the pet, then that individual should be punished.

I'm sorry, people that exploited this in Mayhem should be punished and as long as they go unpunished.

Then again, like MA said maybe they did load into mayhem and spawn their pet to scare all the mobs away and never intended to exploit the bug. Just like how Alex Star Grey did not intend to manipulate Opals for years, or how DannyO did not intend to use the chip the way he did, or how Invisible Andrey manipulated the market for years. I wonder how many other people were wrongly banned because they did not "intend" to abuse the system. :confused:
 

Joat

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In all honestly, I don't care about the people who used this outside of mayhem as much as those who used it inside of mayhem. I understand that there is a higher chance of catching people who are truly innocent and did not intend to exploit the Yog pet.

Mayhem is a different story: There are limited number of these pets in game. I'm sure that you could a single pet being past around between contestants. I can understand summoning a speed, auto-loot or maybe a reduce crit pet in mayhem, but summoning a mining pet with the buff active.. common now... The amount of nutrio bars that it would eat as well would not go unnoticed as well seeing as how the have a metabolic rate. Again, focusing solely on mayhem, there is more than enough information that could be gathered. Again too, a 25% increase in reload speed, how someone could not notice that in an event where you're trying to maximize this kinda stuff.

If MA is able to gather enough evidence to award someone for lost tokens due to another person exploiting the pet, then that individual should be punished.

I'm sorry, people that exploited this in Mayhem should be punished and as long as they go unpunished.

Then again, like MA said maybe they did load into mayhem and spawn their pet to scare all the mobs away and never intended to exploit the bug. Just like how Alex Star Grey did not intend to manipulate Opals for years, or how DannyO did not intend to use the chip the way he did, or how Invisible Andrey manipulated the market for years. I wonder how many other people were wrongly banned because they did not "intend" to abuse the system. :confused:
I don't think many (if any) who didn't use the pet want them unpunished, but this isn't about that.
It's about being able to prove they did it on purpose.
In a way similar to a RL court where it isn't about someone has done something wrong or not,
its about being able to prove it. Someone can be guilty AF but still walk away, and there might be
someone who is innocent and still judged as guilty. Do anyone here want to be the second one,
and accept that without fighting back? Don't think so.
I know some will say EU and MA isn't a RL court, and thats right, but it wasn't about being
a RL court, it was about an analogy.
With RCE comes another level of consumer rights, MA must have this in mind when they
take their decisions.
 
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morfoc

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if the 12 people are more important than the 90% of players who ask for a strong punishment, the game can only work with these 12 people. :rolleyes:

we're not talking about a VU that part of the community rejects, we're talking about cheaters.
 

Bahb

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If you truly believe MA intentionally builds bugs just so that specific chosen avas can steal from others then:

  1. You're a dumb ass for not realizing MA could more easily make up the scores out of nowhere to make the winners whomever they want
  2. Don't do business with a company you truly believe is cheating. To do so means you're a dumb ass and a sadist.
So, you gonna leave, or is it y'er just trollin' w/ that comment? :poke:
You meant massochist
 

BlackHawk

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.............

15 Years in PE/EU and you do not know such simple facts? So this shows how good you know this game after 15 years or is this another try to play the innocent person who knows nothing about anything while at the same time plays the know it all and better than anyone else.

Even a player in his first year in EU knows this:
I was active at some point. I still have my avatar, but I do not play anymore. I do not have the time to get involved in EU. I enter the game once in a while... I may deposit at some point to have some fun and see how the game works these days.
I have no idea at this time how the buffs work and I do not care to find out. I just don't care.
I am curious to see how this issue gets resolved. I am also aware that MA can't really please the mob whatever they do. I outlined some of the facts that they need to consider. Life is not as simple or black and white as idealistic people like to hope it can be.
 

GxB

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I don't think many (if any) who didn't use the pet want them unpunished, but this isn't about that.
It's about being able to prove they did it on purpose.
In a way similar to a RL court where it isn't about someone has done something wrong or not,
its about being able to prove it. Someone can be guilty AF but still walk away, and there might be
someone who is innocent and still judged as guilty. Do anyone here want to be the second one,
and accept that without fighting back? Don't think so.
I know some will say EU and MA isn't a RL court, and thats right, but it wasn't about being
a RL court, it was about an analogy.
With RCE comes another level of consumer rights, MA must have this in mind when they
take their decisions.
you dont have to proof they did it on purpose. when you steak you dont have to proof he did it on purpose. when you dont pay your taxes correctly they dont have to proof you did it on purpose. you do something and you face the consequences. no matter if you did it on purpose. thats how law works and thats how it should be working here.
 

Rechinul

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:laugh::laugh::laugh:
too funny to see how this IMPORTANT Matter is treated by MA!

That should give us a WARNING about the company!

 

Joat

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you dont have to proof they did it on purpose. when you steak you dont have to proof he did it on purpose. when you dont pay your taxes correctly they dont have to proof you did it on purpose. you do something and you face the consequences. no matter if you did it on purpose. thats how law works and thats how it should be working here.
Nope, not how the law works. You (and many others) seem to mix up what is allowed as
as evidence and whats needed to be convicted of a crime (in a criminal case).
Evidence can be anything as long it is objective and rational, but to be convicted for a
crime the prosecutor must both prove that the prosecuted have done the crime and had
intent to do it.


And now something completly different: :D
For those who are bored and have nothing to do, search for "Dunning Kruger effect", specially
about cat 1 people there.
 

morfoc

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who can believe that a player who buys such an expensive pet will not test it and realize that there is something abnormal or beneficial. it is absolutely impossible that a man does not see the difference either with the sound / the reload bar / or with the speed with which it kills the monster.
3 factors + price pet that make it almost impossible not to realize this especially for old players ,do not speak of beginners who can make a mistake.:wise:
of course I see some people coming to tell me that they were certainly playing without their glasses and with music:dunce:.
 

Bahb

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Nope, not how the law works. You (and many others) seem to mix up what is allowed as
as evidence and whats needed to be convicted of a crime (in a criminal case).
Evidence can be anything as long it is objective and rational, but to be convicted for a
crime the prosecutor must both prove that the prosecuted have done the crime and had
intent to do it.


And now something completly different: :D
For those who are bored and have nothing to do, search for "Dunning Kruger effect", specially
about cat 1 people there.

You are looking to describe this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
 

Joat

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If we examen per case, there will be a of lot different approaches, thats for sure. :D
Some will use it due to reason, others as an excuse.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one thing though, last posts are not based on my thoughts
only but from a website about laws in sweden, a bit lazy I know. :D
 
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morfoc

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If we examen per case, there will be a of lot different approaches, thats for sure. :D
Some will use it due to reason, others as an excuse.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one thing though, last posts are not based on my thoughts
only but from a website about laws in sweden, a bit lazy I know. :D
When I looked at your pictures , I understood why you were so active, that the people concerned were not punished.
 

Joat

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When I looked at your pictures , I understood why you were so active, that the people concerned were not punished.
Ok? :scratch2: In what way do my pictures show that I'm concerned that MA should follow
something that is called ethics in some countries?
For the 100th of times, it isn't about punishment but the procedure to prove them guilty.
Ofc should they be punished if they are found guilty of it, never been any doubts about that.

I start to wonder if you use google translate and some sentences becomes really odd, just as
your post. If you do, switch language that is to be translated, and translate back to your
language... occasionly you'll see really screwed up translations. :D

On the other hand I saw your logic about MAs profit and loot pool and I really hope
that was a joke, if not its quite clear why your logic fits cat1 in DKe.
 

Mega

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From reading other replies in this thread I feel the above should be disqualified from Summer Mayhem.

Otherwise I suspect it'll get pretty ugly when the results are listed.



MA - you screwed up by not reading your support cases and letting this go on is just going to make it worse.
 
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Joat

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From reading otther replies in this thread I feel the above should be disqualified from Summer Mayhem.

Otherwise I suspect it'll get pretty ugly when the results are listed.



MA - you screwed up by not reading your support cases and letting this go on is just going to make it worse.
Several screw ups there... first a sloppy development on the pet, then not handling support cases
correctly. They could do a "soft punishment" on the spot and not allowing them to join instanced
events for some time. On the other hand, doubt they have any tool to handle that.
 
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