Ziplex spam

I think there's a bit of terminological confusion here over the term "exploit." Some people are attributing the term to a state of the game in and of itself, while others are using the term to refer to actions an individual performs while interacting within such a state of the game.

For those who are using "exploit" in the first sense, perhaps as synonymous with "bug," it makes sense to say, at least in retrospect of MindArk's announcement, that what happened is an exploit. Contrary to other changes to the loot system and "happy hour" type occurrences, we are now in a good position to say what happened in this instance was not intended by the developers. Note that it would be a category error to assign culpability just on the grounds of this sense of the term exploit. No individual performs an exploit in this sense, whether they were affected by it or not, logged in or not, have an account or not, etc.; this meaning of exploit is entirely defined in terms of the state of the game.

There are at least three important categories of ways in which such a bug could affect an individual. The first is when an individual performs the same actions they would have performed if the bug did not exist (or at least their hypothetical game theoretic strategy treats bugged states and non-bugged states the same), but the outcomes they experience are altered because of the bug. I take it as requiring no argument that this category does not merit culpability. An example would be a player who suffers a crash and is unable to log back in because they equipped an RK-0 (then named RK-5) during a Fort Event Battle (this used to be a thing). Sometimes the altered outcomes in these cases will affect an individual positively, and other times negatively.

The second category is, I'll just define it implicitly, everything in between the first and third categories. Here we do have the possibility of establishing different degrees of culpability on the part of the individual, depending on the context. The primary focus of policy enforcement in this category should be on individual education, broad communication, and software improvement, rather than harsh punishment, and the most common penalty for less-than-serial offenders should be temporarily-tracked warnings with upgrades to suspensions if too many are accrued before others "fall off" (something like points accrued for traffic violations perhaps).

The third category is when an individual intentionally alters their actions to gain an unfair advantage from a bug, knowing that what they are doing is a violation of policy and the developers' intent. This is what, in most formal policy systems, would be called "cheating." For those who are using "exploit" as synonymous with "cheating" in this sense, exploitation certainly does merit culpability, indeed, often a high degree of it (there are plausibly cases where skipping the warnings and going straight to suspensions would be appropriate, so long as the individual's side of the story is thoroughly heard out during the investigation period, and the totality of the evidence actually places the individual in this category beyond reasonable doubt), but it is meaningless to attribute this sense of the term exploit to the state of the game in abstraction from any player action, so one could not say generically that what happened was an exploit in this sense.

This appears to be leading to a motte-and-bailey fallacy in which, by equivocating on the term "exploit," some folks are making a case for there being an exploit in the first sense (the motte) and using that conclusion to draw inferences about exploitation in the second sense (the bailey).
 
And very huge legal ramifications. It's like the people who "Found that infinite money glitch with chase" These morons thought they were just going to keep the money they stole. Now they are being arrested and tried as felons.
comparing opening strongboxes you paid for to people who knowingly committed check fraud is not very honest. since we're talking about honor and integrity here.
 
comparing opening strongboxes you paid for to people who knowingly committed check fraud is not very honest. since we're talking about honor and integrity here.
According to Mindark, just because you paid for something, does not mean you won said object and they have the right to revoke that if any rule breaking has occurred. Once again. YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE ITEMS WITHIN YOUR ACCOUNT IF YOU DO SOMETHING FRAUDULENT.
 
... if any rule breaking has occurred....
Well that's kind of at the heart of what jwestonmoss was saying - when you buy a box and open it, you are not expecting that action to be an infraction of the rule. The issue for all of us is - at what point do you have to decide that, because of the results of that action, you may be breaking a rule.

TheOne Omega's post is a superb analysis, combined with the points raised by kingofaces above.... I sincerely hope MA can navigate this problem with some finality - it's bad enough being afraid of bad loot days, I couldn't cope with much "goodloot-phobia" - the game's tough enough as it is.
 
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According to Mindark, just because you paid for something, does not mean you won said object and they have the right to revoke that if any rule breaking has occurred. Once again. YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE ITEMS WITHIN YOUR ACCOUNT IF YOU DO SOMETHING FRAUDULENT.
Are we not intended to...open strongboxes? Is that fraudulent? You seem to be really hyped up on this "you are all exploiters and frauds" train, but nothing of that sort happened.
 
For Numbers

RECORDED Ziplex Looted in the last 20 hours 190

RECORDED Ziplex Looted ALL of 2023 115.
So far I feel like this is the most crucial information in the thread. Thanks for posting these #'s
 
Well that's kind of at the heart of what jwestonmoss was saying - when you buy a box and open it, you are not expecting that action to be an infraction of the rule. The issue for all of us is - at what point do you have to decide that, because of the results of that action, you may be breaking a rule.

TheOne Omega's post is a superb analysis, combined with the points raised by kingofaces above.... I sincerely hope MA can navigate this problem with some finality - it's bad enough being afraid of bad loot days, I couldn't cope with much "goodloot-phobia" - the game's tough enough as it is.

Right. At best, this is a "your winning lottery ticket isn't valid" situation, not a "you robbed a bank". They had a right to be there, and had a right to open the strongbox. MindArk's glitch caused the outcome. In a game like this - where you are rewarded for goal-seeking good drops and finding loot to sell, and in which have been many, many, MANY examples of happy hours that were never reverted and may have even been intended, I'm not sure anyone here did anything malicious against the spirit of the game. I don't have a dog in the fight, but honestly, I think at worst reverting the items is appropriate. Asking for permabans because they are "fraudulent cheats and thieves" is dumb. I miss out on all the happy hours too.
 
Everyone know we can open strongboxes...

Doing that tho during this clear glitch/bug moment in large quantity "without knowing something is up after 5th or 10th rare looting.

Anyone claiming they were unaware or not sure if it was intended or not is full of shit.
 
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Everyone know we can open strongboxes...

Doing that tho during this clear glitch/bug moment in large quantity "without knowing something is up after 5th or 10th rare looting.

Anyone claiming they were unaware or not sure if it was intended or not is full of shit.
In entropia we use term "Brain fart" xD
 
Everyone know we can open strongboxes...

Doing that tho during this clear glitch/bug moment in large quantity "without knowing something is up after 5th or 10th rare looting.

Anyone claiming they were unaware or not sure if it was imtended or not is full of shit.
Abnormal things happen all the time and the game just rolls on like nothing happened. The line between "wow this is my lucky day" and "this is going to get me banned" is not as clear as some probably think. There are lots (LOTS) of unintended behaviors regarding loot and missions that persist even to this day, and are even considered standard operating procedure on some planets. I'm not against having action taken. But if they are gonna start doing it, it needs to be consistent, or it just looks like more interference in the economy...where some happy hours are ok, and some aren't.
 
Asking for permabans because they are "fraudulent cheats and thieves" is dumb.
I don't see anyone asking for permabans from this specific situation though. I do believe repeat exploiters SHOULD be punished though. But nowhere has it been said that Permabans should happen.
Are we not intended to...open strongboxes? Is that fraudulent? You seem to be really hyped up on this "you are all exploiters and frauds" train, but nothing of that sort happened.
Yes, when you see something wrong is CLEARLY happening, continue to partake is fraudulent.

Once again, those who are protecting those who exploited and derailing the conversations are the same ones EVERY SINGLE TIME something like this happens.

Anyone claiming they were unaware or not sure if it was intended or not is full of shit.
Exactly!

The numbers speak for themselves and the numbers are much larger. I'll be compiling more data as I can with in game chat logs that people have sent me. It is much worse than 190 in 20 hours versus 113 in 1 year.
Well that's kind of at the heart of what jwestonmoss was saying - when you buy a box and open it, you are not expecting that action to be an infraction of the rule. The issue for all of us is - at what point do you have to decide that, because of the results of that action, you may be breaking a rule.

TheOne Omega's post is a superb analysis, combined with the points raised by kingofaces above.... I sincerely hope MA can navigate this problem with some finality - it's bad enough being afraid of bad loot days, I couldn't cope with much "goodloot-phobia" - the game's tough enough as it is.
Except when you are purposefully opening the boxes when there is very obviously something happening that shouldn't be.
Common @Angela Draniie Cloud, all your conversations in this post and the ppl you are arguing with, are boring and unproductive. MA will investigate and dispense justice as they see fit, regardless of all the bullshit said in this this thread.
There's no arguing. Aren't you one of the exploiters? I would keep your mouth shut until mindark makes their decision. Conversations like these are generally boring. But they are not unproductive as NOTHING would have been done if @mjcrystaldiamond and @Mike Kaffeslukarn Morazi didn't make this more public on the forums.

I apologize for my understanding of the games terms and conditions as I'VE ACTUALLY READ THEM. This should be something you should read before exploiting the game the next time.
 
Abnormal things happen all the time and the game just rolls on like nothing happened. The line between "wow this is my lucky day" and "this is going to get me banned" is not as clear as some probably think. There are lots (LOTS) of unintended behaviors regarding loot and missions that persist even to this day, and are even considered standard operating procedure on some planets. I'm not against having action taken. But if they are gonna start doing it, it needs to be consistent, or it just looks like more interference in the economy...where some happy hours are ok, and some aren't.
I dont blame people who opened 5-10 boxes.

But those who opened or knew to open alot!

i do consider people who cycle enought to understand and know what is normal.

We know how regular waves work.

Examples to us all:

Oh i play 6 month HoF once.
Must be my lucky day!

Oh nothing for 6 month HoF 10 times a row. Must be my lucky day!

I dont want punish new or random guys, but where cases are quite clear hard punishment 100% is better then no punishment or slap in the hand.
 
I dont want punish new or random guys, but where cases are quite clear hard punishment 100% is better then no punishment or slap in the hand.
And keeping an eye on who traded these accounts for said amps to make sure they are not alt accounts or also trying to game the system. As seen in the one forum post already.
 
I dont blame people who opened 5-10 boxes.

But those who opened or knew to open alot!

i do consider people who cycle enought to understand and know what is normal.

We know how regular waves work.

Examples to us all:

Oh i play 6 month HoF once.
Must be my lucky day!

Oh nothing for 6 month HoF 10 times a row. Must be my lucky day!

I dont want punish new or random guys, but where cases are quite clear hard punishment 100% is better then no punishment or slap in the hand.
Again, I think enforcement is good, if we're gonna do it.

But only if we're going to be consistent. I'm not expecting them to "look back" and punish people from the past. But going forward, every happy hour, every glitch leading to an advantage, needs to have the same policy. A rollback of any advantage, and if it was a clear exploit that was outside the normal gameplay, then a penalty.

What I don't want to see is a continuation of inconsistent application, which leads to the appearance of favoritism - aka it is "ok" when some people benefit from a "bank error in their favor" and not when others do.
 
So basically the usual happen, people find exploit. All the usual exploiters and their friends go exploit knowing they'll get a slap on the wrist, in this case 5 day ban, a few new ones try some too because they know from past RM exploit that it was mild sentence. Each time this happens more and more will do it.

How is this a deterrent MA? @Ludvig|MindArk

This only gives people more courage to exploit because they know they'll get mild sentence. At very least should remove those Ziplex from the people who looted a ton of ziplex and if they tried to give to "friends" or alts lock them fking liquidate them.

And for the love of god, hire better bug testers or coders because adding a clothing update should not break smth like mining box...
 
Again, I think enforcement is good, if we're gonna do it.

But only if we're going to be consistent. I'm not expecting them to "look back" and punish people from the past. But going forward, every happy hour, every glitch leading to an advantage, needs to have the same policy. A rollback of any advantage, and if it was a clear exploit that was outside the normal gameplay, then a penalty.

What I don't want to see is a continuation of inconsistent application, which leads to the appearance of favoritism - aka it is "ok" when some people benefit from a "bank error in their favor" and not when others do.
👍
 
... The line between "wow this is my lucky day" and "this is going to get me banned" is not as clear as some probably think. ...
Head of nail meets hammer.
...Except when you are purposefully opening the boxes when there is very obviously something happening that shouldn't be...

I have played for 18 years.. if ANYTHING rare drops for me I must assume it shouldn't happen, because it never has. That is what seems obvious to me, because I don't play in the league that has a perception of the frequency around rare drops - my frequency is nil.

I say this not to excuse anyone who does play in that league, and has knowingly "leaned in" to the bug, but merely to suggest that it is not as cut-and-dry as to who should be excoriated and who simply made a mistake. Fortunately that decision is not up to me, or any of us here.
 
Again, I think enforcement is good, if we're gonna do it.

But only if we're going to be consistent. I'm not expecting them to "look back" and punish people from the past. But going forward, every happy hour, every glitch leading to an advantage, needs to have the same policy. A rollback of any advantage, and if it was a clear exploit that was outside the normal gameplay, then a penalty.

What I don't want to see is a continuation of inconsistent application, which leads to the appearance of favoritism - aka it is "ok" when some people benefit from a "bank error in their favor" and not when others do.
Agree 100%
 
What's stupid about this is people opened strongboxes with keys nothing wrong on the person end it's MAs fault ... since seasonal boxes stopped giving 15 mg pills so that changed, then legacy boxes dropping limited finders far more often than mining boxes so that drop rate changed

Then like everything else in this game changing what if MA from here on out was going to drastically reduce drop rate of mining boxes while mining BUT give a high % of good rewards like a boosted legacy (They never tell us)... so who knows they change stuff all the dam time and when you see an opportunity on this game you have to jump on it before prices skyrocket and/or they lower it again.

On the other side of the coin tho they 100% have to take them all back (and i got some) it was way too many and will destroy the amp crafting end which is the only thing left holding the economy together barely. Plus tons of dunkel/ruga which will kill F106 finders etc even more. As a business owner if I screwed up this badly It comes out of my pocket because it's the right thing to do to fix the situation. For the people who spent a lot on mining boxes they deserve some type of compensation. Maybe 10-20p in uni ammo for every box opened just as a way for MA to show they give a crap + an apology.

Now about that dam mining bot guy ban that piece of human garbage and his 1000 accounts!!!!
 
Happy hour we've seen before, it's nothing new really. What's different this time is that Mindark has decided to take action against the abusers, maybe it has something to do with mining globals dropping to an all time low? Or CLDT payouts dropping to 2 PEC per week, which is the actual elephant in the room. People are loosing confidence, it's up to Mindark to restore it now.

Developers are people too, we know that, everyone makes mistakes. What really makes a difference is how you approach your mistakes: if you own up to it and make a decent attempt at fixing it, that's respectable; if you ignore it and act like nothing happened in the hopes that people will forget sooner or later, that's a trashy approach.
 
Imagine buy a scratch for 3 dollars, and u get 20 dollars back, u proceed to buy the rest of the scratch pile and they all get prizes what would you do?
i think the more accurate way of seeing this is....

imagine buy a scratch for 3 dollars, you dont win, hand it back to the store and they say "Hey! You won!" and gave you some reward.

You then bought another scratch, didnt win, handed it back.. "Hey! You won again!" and repeat....


obvious bug is obvious, not even suprised anymore... i cant blame people for continuing to open boxes either, because track record has shown MA doesnt respond or do anything about it... maybe this time its different, from all the locked accounts it seem.

but, i have a feeling they are only locked for a short time and then unlocked with nothing done :p
 
Please keep this thread on topic, and remember that the forum rules are still in effect. Personal attacks are not allowed, and this is not the place for personal disputes that just drag the thread off topic.


Also, any further comments attacking other users based on race, nationality or real-life politics in this thread will be met with (at minimum) a temp ban without warning, with the length depending on the severity of the violation.
 
They probably put all accounts tied to Mining boxes on a temp ban just to be able to investigate and control the items.
When this is done, actual bans might be handed out to a few persons who obviously abused this.
My guess, at least.
Per announcement, they getting the swift kick in the ass.

But.. real issue here, other than people devoid of character, is that the system implemented is garbage (and prone to ridiculous and expensive errors).
 
Per announcement, they getting the swift kick in the ass.

But.. real issue here, other than people devoid of character, is that the system implemented is garbage (and prone to ridiculous and expensive errors).
you should teach them how to write software
 
I dont blame people who opened 5-10 boxes.

But those who opened or knew to open alot!

i do consider people who cycle enought to understand and know what is normal.

We know how regular waves work.

Examples to us all:

Oh i play 6 month HoF once.
Must be my lucky day!

Oh nothing for 6 month HoF 10 times a row. Must be my lucky day!

I dont want punish new or random guys, but where cases are quite clear hard punishment 100% is better then no punishment or slap in the hand.
The problem here is that your notion of identifying cases which are quite clear is worlds apart from an epistemology that actually tracks truth, but is quite convenient in terms of justifying premature calls for collective punishment. If you try to bracket off the current context and think about the playerbase from a more neutral perspective, I think you will see it is manifestly not the case that we all know how loot works, judging by the fact that there is not even widespread agreement between players over how loot works. There is no broad consensus on whether loot instances are independent and identically distributed, loot waves exist (and if so how they function), global loot pools exist, personal loot pools exist, etc. Even information stated by MindArk regarding how loot works is interpreted with a wide degree of latitude on a regular basis.

This is relevant because the type of outlier outcome which occurred here is plausible predicted by some loot theories. For example, one common loot theory is that loot computations (sometimes multiplier rates, in this case we'll posit item drop rates) are filtered through a superposition of temporally-situated waves; often three waves (small/medium/large), but it could just as well be a bigger number. On this hypothesis, one would expect uncommon times at which the phases of enough waves align that the type of outcome we observed is the proper functioning of the loot system, due to the phenomenon of resonance. For such a wave theorist (who also had a lot of patience), prior to seeing MindArk's statement that the outcome was unintended, it could have been entirely reasonable to open boxes during such a window of perceived resonance. Indeed, it could have been reasonable (and still could be in the future) to wait for such a window to open a dump-ton of boxes.

Loot theory is just the one presumption you've made explicit. You've made many others implicitly. Was an individual watching their drops as they opened their boxes, or clicking through while paying attention to something else? If they noticed their drops, did they have good reason to know they were different from other non-bugged occurrences of drop heterogeneity colloquially referred to as "happy hour"? Etc. Etc. This is the problem with trying to attribute blame on a collective level. You don't actually know any of the case-specific details until you learn them with regard to a specific individual. It's generally not possible to find an objective metric like "10 boxes is fine, 11 boxes is too much." You gain confidence in policy violation when a lot of different pieces of evidence come together, and that's usually difficult or impossible for the playerbase to do without the tools at MindArk's disposal.

For that matter, what should an honest player do in the face of uncertainty about this type of occurrence? It's not obvious to me. It's easy to say that if a player knows with virtual certainty that their performing actions would constitute an exploit, then they should not perform those actions and should report the bug. But what if the individual places, say, 50% credence in an outcome being a bug and 50% credence in it being an occurrence of resonance or happy hour or an unknown event? It's far from clear that an honest player should be expected to forego a plausibly-legitimate strategy, when to do so would be a terrible pragmatic mistake if the occurrence turns out to be within the bounds of developer intent. "Don't do it if you think it might be a bug" seems unattainably restrictive in just about any game, let alone a sandbox in which player creativity is supposed to take center state in the formation of individuals' user experiences. The chilling effects of such a metapolicy would be ruinous for the Entropian spirit. Perhaps the most reasonable course of action to jointly minimize policy error and pragmatic error over a sequence of such cases would be to juice the living daylights out of the opportunity if you want to but also report it, and state in the report that you'll keep the items obtained in Storage for a week or two rather than circulating them through the economy, just in case the opportunity is later announced as a bug and MindArk decides to do some sort of rollback? That's still a lot of preemptive responsibility to expect all honest Entropians to take, and it really feels like we shouldn't have to deal with this at all.
 
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