Question: Should creature AI be enhanced?

Should creature AI be enhanced?


  • Total voters
    155
  • Poll closed .
Atroxes eating other daikba's for example ...
Dont underestimate the mighty Daikiba, they are known for having Argos on their dinner plates sometimes...
(or where do the white argo skulls come from that they sometimes have in their stomach :))
 
A tiny step further in this...

Mobs finding and eating fruit? On the other hand maybe we would see more dung...
 
As many said, there is a lot to solve before improving Mob AI, but the focus should not be on that alone. Improving the AI of the whole game should be dealt with, for example:

Avatar:
- when receiving a crit, or giving one.
- Pulling a big Mob.
- Getting a global or HoF or ATH.
- Getting failed attempts or no loots.
- when getting damage in or out of vehicle.

Mobs:
- Shooting at different parts of a mob's body, improves crit chance.
- Mobs attacks should cycle through a couple of different attacks.

I want to have my Avatar develop his own characteristics, shouting at mobs, getting pumped up before pulling a big mob, that is if i'm a hunter, or hoping to find a big claim on my last couple of mines or probes, if i'm a mine-aholic.

I don't know much about lag, but i have played a couple of online based games, which handle the lag issue with ease. I just hope to see it here.
 
A tiny step further in this...

Mobs finding and eating fruit? On the other hand maybe we would see more dung...

Its more like - one more step and you would occasionally start losing items & ammo to mobs when you die that could then be relooted :p
 
It has been enhance, for example in 8.6 this is stated:



Or just go to this side and serach on AI to read all.

http://www.entropiadirectory.com/wiki/Older_VUs_list#Version_6.0_.2810_Aug_2004.29

I tried to find the old post from Marco or Welter where they talks about future AI behaviours where berycled could follow you up stairs and so on, but didn't have enough time to find it. Maybe someone elese remebers this old statement (it's ref. in an old post from me somewhere).

Yup he definitely said something about berys acting like velociraptors in jurassic park or some such thing. If there was a retribution for our mistakes in life, after death, I'd like to see marco forced to watch raptor scenes from jurassic park with examples of bery AI along side it once for every player he disapointed with that statement ;) :yay:


I can allready hear the whining threads about how an atrox KSed me. Its fine as it is, if you want to (maybe) hunt something more intelligent try pvp 3 or 4, perhaps even the rig ;)

Something more inteligent? how about people?

Post from 2006: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/wishlist/15848-play-mob-heres-how.html
 
About an automated solution to this AI situation though, its a big ass problem. :scratch2:

If someone from MA/FPC could for example tell us HOW MANY mobs are active in game at any one time we would no just how big a problem is.

Any extra work you need to do per mob to make it more inteligent has to be multiplied by that number. They probably don't have enough processing power.

Of course, there are probably some short cuts but these would require some interesting thinking on the implementation side.

I'd like to see MA push the boat out and BE the first MMO company to make realistic creative AI on a large scale

They just need to give someone the time to sit down and figure out a solution.

hehe I say "just", I realise that is probably impossible

Wistrel
 
think that true reeeeaaal hard m8! loot comes from the inside so where have those stones been b4 they come flying at you:D

They can just take the stones out of their *** for all I care!!! :D
 
Of course, there are probably some short cuts but these would require some interesting thinking on the implementation side.

First one I could think of would be the 'herd'. We've all (well most of us) have seen nature programs showing the grazing animals reacting as a single entity / herd due to an outside influence.

Implementing a system where attacking one makes other members of the same mob react in an appropriate manner. However a player attacking one atrox and the other 10-20 atrox in the area all attacking wouldn't make MA popular with that hunter.

Equally a stampede of exo running through the servers because one noob shot a young wouldn't be good.

This is ignoring that old story of where one animal gets attacked, killed and eaten while other members of the same species stand around and just carry on as normal (i.e. like now in EU) afterall what have they got to worry about the predator has something to eat.

There's also the parent animal protecting its young from an attacker so an older more mature mob would attempt to protect a younger from being attacked. In this case attacking a young would make the mature attack.

The second approach would require the least effort as it just means the mob agro code would need an extra input from surrounding mobs attack state.

Both methods could result in a single player being overwelmed just because they attacked a single mob. The second idea would require the least processing power on client and server sides.

The other behaviour we usually assume with enhanced ai would be if mobs could dodge and weave to avoid being shot. I don't believe this would work with EU because of the cheats MA put in place to reduce lag and rubber banding. We get rubber banding as our clients tell the servers where we are at fixed intervals, we've all experienced it at some time and it also affects mobs. So what happens when a mob dodges to avoid a shot.

The same or very similar code used to estimate our position during those intervals is used to work out where a mob is. Often the best way to hit a mob thats moving in parallel to our own position (i.e. its running at or away from someone else) is to shoot slightly in front to allow for the lag between the shot and its movement. For a hit to count, where the mob is and if our shot passes through the same location has to happen at roughly the same time, this partly handed by the server and by the client.

Adding an ability to dodge a shot is too demanding as it means the time intervals between working out the mobs location and our own would need to be much smaller and could result in even more lag due to higher network traffic.

For example, a mob has triggered its dodge and on our client we've shot but it's counted as a miss as the server has the mob in a different loction even though we've shot right at it because the time for the servers to tell us where the mob is is too great for our systems to cope with. Remember that all the clients / players have to be told a mob has dodged for people with a large ping time to the EU servers it could mean seriously bad game play and no two members in a hunting party having the mob in same position unless they're in the same room.

The current system estimates this out by calculating the location and handing some of the processing to the client. Everyone is working at the same time and using the same calculation so a mob appears at roughly the same place for everyone in the area.

Even if the mob dodging was implemented client side the other players in the area would get lag as the data would need to be send to and processed by the servers, then sent to the other players. Every client would be fighting each other for dominance unless your going to limit it to the player it's currently attacking.

The position time interval was calibrated by MA a few years ago in VU8 (I think) when physx support was added, almost everyone experienced rubber banding and it gradually reduced as they got closer to the best timing. Before then jumping off a mountain was a 5 minute wait to hit the bottom as the system fought as it new no one could move that fast ;) This timing can still be screwed up if people start a big download while playing EU.

MA use a chase algorithm for an agro'd mob which is simple, an example is at the link below.

Building Brains into Your Games
 
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My answer is "yes and no".

I mean, yes to some mobs, no to others.

One obvious example where it needs to be changed, is when tagging a "regen" mob: The way it works today, it starts to run, but because it healed after half distance but is still aggro, it attacks someone else.

Another example is that "friendly" herbibore creatures, like snables, should react a bit differently: If someone come in aggro range, they should first try to move (slowly) away from the unknown creature, but attack if the "human" gets too intrusive and can be seen as an attacker.
Maybe then some other mobs (exo?) should behave like, if one gets attacked, then it stays and defend itself, but the other ones flee away a bit.

An intelligent mob, let's say umbranoid, could behave a bit more humanlike: If one gets attacked, then they "call for assistance" and few buddies join the fight. In this case, the trick would be to aggro one by approaching it slowly, then backing off and luring it away from its pals, and then shoot it when it's "alone" (say 60m from its friends) - unless you are ready for a real fight - but if there are more than 2 dead bodies (dean umbranoids), all the ones that are in radar view runs until they are outside your radar.

Also if there are two kinds of mutants, then if you attack let's say an umbranoid and a feff is next to it, then the feff will come for assistance.

Another thing there could be, is for instance (let's take umbaranoids again as example); in the old villages ther was a little cemetary. Let's now assume umbranoids get very mad if humans enter that small cemetary, so if someone (human) enters that area, every umbranoid in radar range will come and be very mad.

Yet another example, is if you attack an armax cow, any bull that is close to that cow will attack you to defend the cow.

As for animals, the AI writer have to consider a bit like how a normal wild animal would react. Will this animal attack humans unprovoked? (ie predators like atrox, or very aggressive ones like merp). Maybe mobs should learn for a little while - let's say you can walk in a swarm of snable (F) and nothing happens. But if you kill a snable (F), then they will behave like normal mobs - they'll attack if you get too close.

A new thing that could come would b e swarms. Imagine if a spaceship (compare mining ship) lands and put down 8 warriors. Those 8 warriors will start to walk in a random direction, and attack any human that comes in sight. Or, at regualr robot spawns, there are troopers that move around - move around a longer distance.Maybe troopers could spawn in normal robot spawns, and then start to go for some settlement and being accompanied with jamraiders. If the jamraiders manage to get into a settlement, it blocks the turret, and the troopers (warriors?) can get into town. To not make things too troublesome if noone is around, let's say after 30 minutes the jamraiders crash on the ground, there is a warning message something like "Turrets starting up active in 30 seconds") and after that time (grace time so hunters can finish their mobs) the turrets wake up and kills teh remaining robots.
To make it more logical maybe, warriors go for settlements, and troopers go in random direction in terrain.

Or, a group (spawn) of drones: Let's say for each 10 drones, there is one "drone coordinator" (in some locations). If you shoot at a drone and there is adrone coordinator nearby, you'll get a shooting squad at you. But if you begin with taking out the drone coordinator, the drones can be shot at individually safely.

Well, that's just a few examples.
 
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When mobs are disturbed the only thing they can do is run/fly/swim towards you in a straight line and attack.

Yes and thats the better case. They could also turn 180 degrees and attack someone else, ofcourse after you tagged em ;)

Thats the most annoying thin for me... when you hunt, someone comes and aggro 20mobs, than they start running around and attackin you etc.

Mob eating mob isnt the best idea Imo, because in mixed spawns it wuould result in only the strongest mob remaining:)

What I would like to see is a creature migration, like the big atrox spawn would travel around some path on Ithaca, maybe camping at night near some cavern...

And I would like to see night only mobs...

AND also what AIA sayed in upper post, there are some really great ideas!!!!
 
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AI of mobs in EU is a shame, the worst beeing that the message devs give to players is "stay away from any other player" wich leads us to even emptier spaces and borness!!
 
I wonder how many animals in real life try to dodge a bullet ? :scratch2:

As far as I know, in real life, most animals attack in an straight line.
Unless they have to avoid a tree. :laugh:

.
 
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I for one would love to see EU have a more realistic ecosystem with more varied and logical mob behaviour; it would certainly make hunting more of a challenge as you'd need to understand your prey much more intimately, just like hunters in real life. However, I would also like to see it balanced out by a more logical and realistic approach to loot modelling. For example, how the hell does one combibo end up with two sets of shogun shins and 58 loads of wool, while another (larger) combibo just has a pile of nova fragments? But that's just me :)

As already stated by a couple of people above the hard parts here are actually coding the mob behaviour and the processing power needed to keep it all running smoothly.

A few years ago I was involved in a project to create a persistent world server for another game and one of the things we wanted to include was RW behaviour patterns for mobs and NPCs. On the development team there were a couple of experienced coders and all of us had varying degrees of knowledge about RW animal behaviour.

We started with one small area containing three different mobs, each with their own rules on how to act under certain circumstances (ie: if a player came into their territory, if they were alone, or if one of the other mob types was within their detection range, etc). After about a month of coding, testing and tweaking we had what we considered a system that worked across several hundred lines of code per mob type. However, we also realised that to implement that system across an entire world would require massive amounts of processing power - and we weren't planning anything anywhere near as big as EU.

Okay, so we did give each mob type it's own individual set of rules and behaviour, while EU could easily be handled by mob type groups (ie: docile or aggressive, herbivore or predator, herd or loner etc) but that's still a massive bloat on the existing code and one which (as far as I can see) won't be feasible for a while yet. Maybe when cloud computing has improved and server-side workload can be farmed out to all the connected processors simultaneously and equally it might become a reality though.

Just my two PECs. :)
 
Thanks for the mass reaction folks :)


If I may make a conclusion to the results so far, it would be that the majority would like a more realistic mob behavior, but we should realise that this is not easily done due to hardware/programming limmitations.

To bad, I would have hoped that it could be done more easily.

:rolleyes:
 
I’ve often wondered why a predator is ignoring obvious prey…and why the meal is still standing there. “The lion is running for it’s dinner, the gazelle is running for it’s life.”

I’ve seen it in more than one game I’ve played. BUT…

Reasons not to change mob AI in EU occur to me:

1: What Spike said.

2: Mobs killing mobs would lead to folk being unhappy about target loss and therefore potential loot loss.

3: Smarter mobs mean takes longer to find, more ammo to kill and more decay at the end of the day.



I cant see how mobs that takes longer to find is going to make us spend more peds.. :)
 
I cant see how mobs that takes longer to find is going to make us spend more peds.. :)

hmmm...

the longer it takes to find a mob, the less time you spend shooting so the less ped you spend.


not what MA wants...
 
in all fairness animals irl are pretty dumb and in here they can't even stalk you cuz you got radarz! :D

ever been attacked by a moose? they pretty much charge robos on the other hand really should try and stay further away rather then 3 feet from what it's shooting with it's long range high velosity ultra accurate laser!
 
I tried to find the old post from Marco or Welter where they talks about future AI behaviours where berycled could follow you up stairs and so on, but didn't have enough time to find it. Maybe someone elese remebers this old statement (it's ref. in an old post from me somewhere).

Found my old thread about this:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/about-entropia-universe/95339-what-happened.html

EDIT:

The quote from Marco

Hello,

Some feedback. Support should be up to full speed within a week (full speed means replies within 24h in most cases). We are adding more staff to Support in the fall as well.

The next VU will include a massive AI enhancement, which will make hunting more entertaining, as creatures will have sneaky behavior as well as herd mentality. The Berycled feels like Velociraptors from Jurassic Park, storming a house, climbing stairs, etc.

MA will be present in Germany, at GC 2006. We will also have a delegation ready in Shanghai, China, together with Volvo, SKF and Ericsson for the The Swedish Eastindia Ship Götheborg event (http://www.soic.se/). We will be there, showing Entropia to the world (the China National TV is following the event and has some 700m viewers).

We are also setting up presence in more countries around the globe. More on this in a couple of months or so.

The next 6 months for Entropia Universe will have the focus on "Polish, fix and enhance". Expect to see many additions to existing systems in dire need for updates (like Mindforce and Taming). It has been a period where "gameplay" has been held back, now we focus on that, together with fixing bugs. Entropia needs to be more fun!

More to come next week.
 
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I agree a few things need to be changed. Firstly mobs getting stuck behind trees or Levi's stuck in water... The dreaded " no condition" needs to be addressed.
A bit more realism in mob attacks. If a spider is 50m away, it sucks it can kill u from that far.
Maybe, there should be more dung near mobs, help track them and allow them to migrate further.
Keeps things interesting when you run into a mob you weren't expecting.
One key thing about mob AI and realism is that if it jumps on you, you should fall down... Not end up inside looking half in/ half out

Cheers
Bjorn
 
Smarter mobs mean takes longer to find, more ammo to kill and more decay at the end of the day.

So it boils down to:
Do you want a more interesting game? or do you want to get more loot?

Perhaps a compromise?
Instead of Enhanced AI how about "different" AI.

Maybe different mobs react differently? I know some of the low-level mobs start to run away when they are nearly dead and I think this sort of reaction could be extended without it necessarily requiring more PED to kill the mobs.
For example: Instead of rushing straight towards a hunter the mob could run from tree to tree when there are trees around. As we can shoot through trees this would make no difference to the hit rate, but would make it appear more "realistic".

SImilarly, mobs that drown would stop when the water gets deep enough for them to worry - this could actually improve things for hunters, as in the case where a partly damaged mob drowns.
 
Name me one game that actually have animal behavior simulated and you can shoot it ...

name me one too and i'm out of EU. :yay:
 
.........

One word your like AI and nice sandbox

{removed}
 
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