Clarification about Entropia banking operations

Roth said:

anyhow, I do to my own surprise think that MA is right in this, why shouldnt those who pay for licence dont have this advantage?

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Yes. And if they don't make biiig profit fast enough Marco will post a new clarification of the clarification of the clarification:

"Even with our protection for the business of our licensed friends most people do not take loans at them. So MA decided - just to protect the investment of our friends - that everyone who doesn't take at least a 10k PED-loan every week is a scammer. As a scammer he will be banned and all items TT'ed (and go into the "poor-investor-fund")."

So if now MA & 5 friends set up rules for 580k others just to make profit, where will it end? Nono, stop that bullshit!


Ag.

@roth
most people, me included, dont care if we can run a loaning service or not. its the principle. its how they handled the issue, how they approached the community.

personally i got no reason to use any kind of loaning service. i will probably never use it and i will certainly never run one. nevertheless i find this clarification, or behavior in general, rather disturbing and it makes me wonder... whats next?

im still puzzeld why they call it a bank anyways.

let a bank be a bank and let a pawnshop be a pawnshop.*
like i said before, thats the best thing they can do. no free enterprise would dare to run a bank with actual loans.


*
pawnshop = pawn your item to get money. if you dont pay you wont get your item back.
bank = get a loan with a security in your item. you can use the item, but if you cant pay back the loan the bank will seize it

Agnus_Dei said:

Roth said:

anyhow, I do to my own surprise think that MA is right in this, why shouldnt those who pay for licence dont have this advantage? there are atleast five so there will be competion. just like the shops/auc change that so many liked.

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Yes. And if they don't make biiig profit fast enough Marco will post a new clarification of the clarification of the clarification:

"Even with our protection for the business of our licensed friends most people do not take loans at them. So MA decided - just to protect the investment of our friends - that everyone who doesn't take at least a 10k PED-loan every week is a scammer. As a scammer he will be banned and all items TT'ed (and go into the "poor-investor-fund")."

So if now MA & 5 friends set up rules for 580k others just to make profit, where will it end? Nono, stop that bullshit!


Ag.

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Well that was a bit harsh on him

Anyway the banks payed for

A building that could be set at almost any place of their choice and costum made.
If I remember correctly Neomaven payed over 40K PED for the castle near Nymph and that build will much better than such castle.

The building will most likely be set with trade NPC for free like the ones that we see in New Oxford
Noticing that each of them will have a capability and usefulness higher than a regular shopkeeper adds something to the value of the deed for several thousands PEDs at least.

And most important the license holders would have exclusive access to a form of secure trading

And I don't really believe that they wouldn't conduct loans outside their range of their real life banking license but a rogue banker could create an holding somewhere in a tax paradise land and start making loans to almost anywhere in the world with a very cost efficient service (providing that he afterwards would have means to enforce the collection of debts in real life, which isn't hard if they have a bit of imagination)
And this loaning service would be even aimed at the current players.

So yes if I had available 2 million peds to invest in the real life stockmarket I would instead buy an bank license in a virtual universe.

It's obvious to me that they need to add some real value to the bank license.. and not remove real value from the player base..

sob said it perfectly a few posts up...

Banks should be Banks
Pawnshops should be Pawnshops

to just add a bank license and say "you now have the ability to do something everyone else already has the ability to do .. but is "secure"" is just bullshit.. its like selling a set of the new invisible clothes or something..

If the banks are to be successful at this point they will need to offer loans on items that you can keep in your inventory.. and they only get removed if you default on your loan. otherwise its just a glorified "pawnshop" that we obviously already had the ability to run.

and to use that political bullshit of "for the noobs" was just about the stupidest thing i've ever heard... not everyone is a dumb middle class American..... - ; P


EDIT:
at this point i see the banks becoming nothing more than clearing houses for high end users that want the quick path to "cashing out". the market for such items will surely crash and the banks will be stuck with overvalued items that most of the player base cannot afford. and surely the banks shouldn't have "shop" functionality to put those items up for sale right out of the banks.. surely they should need to work with shop owners or buy their own shops to "resale" such items..

Nihilist said:

If the banks are to be successful at this point they will need to offer loans on items that you can keep in your inventory.. and they only get removed if you default on your loan. otherwise its just a glorified "pawnshop" that we obviously already had the ability to run.

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That is exactly what I had in mind when they first introduced this new feature as "BANK"s
And was very much disapointed when it they turned out to be, like you wrote, just a glorified "pawnshop"
That is what I believe that MA should had offered them in the first place, I doubt that they can implement it, but in the case that they do, then they just lost a lot of money since if the banks were advertised with such feature then their licenses could had been sold for several hundred thousands PEDs each (the salarie for one or even more good programmers for one year)

MG Mighty said:

Well that was a bit harsh on him

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Oh... sorry, that was not meant as an offence to him... will spread some +reps


Ag.

Nihilist said:

EDIT:
at this point i see the banks becoming nothing more than clearing houses for high end users that want the quick path to "cashing out".

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Woot, yes! Think about some rumor MA is closing doors/getting bancrypt (again). People will throw all their things into automatic pawnshops (sorry, licensed banks) and 5 minutes later get all their PEDs out of the ATM round the corner.

Ag.

Bear said:

I just wanted to see if there are some new on the Entropiauniverse website about the server down.
Nothing, but the Developers Blog is full of "Thanks for Voting EU up to .. blabla"

I have voted myself becuase of some threads here on EF.

My suggestion: This time, don´t vote for EU. Maybe that will show MA...

i hope MA sees the differnts between saying "Vote bad for EU" (which i don´t want you to do) and "Don´t vote for EU" ....

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sledge- said:

Bear: I see your poit and i did not vote for a while but i started again today ... not because of something good from MA but because i still like EU and i don't want to see our work to get it up to #1 crushed like CBE

sorry for offtopic

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Bear said:

and i can see your point.
But there is so much stuff MA just seem to care a "shit" about and which need to be reworked or fixed. Now this with the Banks/Scammer crap.
MA does not seem to care much about what the players demand, they go their own way. But the seem the care about any "official" news and those votings. I doubt it will harm EU much if we don´t vote for a while, but maybe MA get an idea who they work for. See it people, MA (should) work for us, we pay them, not the other way around.

Stop it before it goes worse!

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Sionkiewicz said:

Agreed. Will not vote anymore. Let their ratings fall where they may.

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Oh keep voting, but vote honestly. If there is something you dont like, vote accordingly. Lets see what the REAL ratings end up at.

Mikah said:

This just to show you, how many people miss the bigger picture. I would say read the entire thread on its entirely but oh well.

Maybe some people truly and genuinly care about this universe, enough to stand up for something they believe in? Not everyone has an ulterior motive you know...

I'd never use the loan system personally, most of the debate has nothing to do with banking, I suggest you try again.

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read the entire thread? thank you no, i got better things to do then read all 700 or so posts, I feel i get the big picture by reading a few pages if i spread them out. it mostly works fine that way since most post are only the same things already written but in other words (and probably my words as well)

however one of the reasons i listed was "care for other people" is that really more of a "ulterior motive" then caring about the universe? and rants/negative sigs etc etc is seldom a good way to show how much you care.. oh i admit i have probably ranted a few times in the past

--

Angus, I have just seen people making chickens out of feathers so many times in my 5 years of pe.. its always the same story, people jumps to the worst possible scenarios, doomsday prophets grow on tree´s it seem. I am sure that Mindark has both themself as well as their entire playerbase best intrest in mind. and even now you can still have your own "bank", if you have alot of friends you can always give loans to them. just dont try to be an official one.

But im not perfect, sometimes it do feel like they make changes that is bad for the majority, i still hate the price change in auc so much. which for me was one thing to much i just couldnt take, which is why i know mostly use pe as a chat and doesnt really do anything

its good that you stand up for what you belive in, but mate, dont worry TO mcuh

Roth said:

...
however one of the reasons i listed was "care for other people" is that really more of a "ulterior motive" then caring about the universe? and rants/negative sigs etc etc is seldom a good way to show how much you care.. oh i admit i have probably ranted a few times in the past
...

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That isn't it at all Roth it isn't about the people involved it is about a principle and the difference between right/wrong and fairness. It is also about tact and understanding it is better to tell the truth from the beginning rather than try to belittle us with a dummied up excuse.

Again as I'v stated many times it doesn't matter to me if this was 3 noobs or 3 ubers... it doesn't matter if I know them or I don't.

Roth said:

and rants/negative sigs etc etc is seldom a good way to show how much you care.. oh i admit i have probably ranted a few times in the past

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I was the original creator of the siggie (as in the actual words), other people saw it, agreed to their meaning and adopted it as their own signature... and someone else even created the graphics and then send them to me if I wanted to adopt it (which btw, thank you )... it is up to each person their own form of interpretation, I dont see it as a negative, I see it as a form of Awareness, I think its important for all players to know and be aware of new changes in MA's policy or as stated "clarification" of a policy that never existed before...each one can interpret it as a negative, positive, etc...

Either way, take it as you will- for me its a matter of opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs the same way I am entitled to mine.

Roth said:

and rants/negative sigs etc etc is seldom a good way to show how much you care..

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To be fair there is not much ranting here and the signature is hardly negative. As Mikah said it's just about awareness and inviting opinions.

Roth said:

and rants/negative sigs etc etc is seldom a good way to show how much you care..

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How in the hell is a sig that directs you to the newest abrupt reversal of policy change, (which I might add, is a direct blow to free enterprise in the Entropian Economy), considered negative. Unless you dont want to be aware of it, or you dont care about free enterprise.

As one of the more directly affected by this policy reversal, I probably feel a bit more passionately about the issue, however, there have been a HUGE number of posters that feel that this change is not good for the community as a whole, and these posters are going to the extent of designing signature links (that I, and many others, are quite happy to adopt) that create more awareness of the actions MA is taking.

As far as caring about other poeple, this is not about that at all, for most (if not all) of the posters, I hope. This is all about protecting your own ability to do business in whatever manner you choose, short of scamming.

Marco|MindArk said:

A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy.

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1 More point for Jan Marco.. maybe ask why these shady inividuals are allowed to run free in EU? is it to expeirence the game? wtf these shady people are allowed to prey on us? and your company allows it? who is it and why are they so important that you ban the good people of EU from enterprise?

Stop with the BS Marco, we are not dumb. What is the freakin deal? You are so contradictary that you don't know what to say.... whatever... like Etopia said your word is worth nothing (cowardice)... even if you make a statement you can't back it because your boss will overrule it... lol

TrinketSoul said:

1 More point for Jan Marco.. maybe ask why these shady inividuals are allowed to run free in EU? is it to expierence the game? wtf these shady people are allowed to prey on us? and your company allows it? who is it and why are they so important that you ban the good people of EU from enterprise?b

Stop with the BS Marco

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Exactly. If this is true Marco, and I seriously dought that, then why don't you just ban these "shady characters" and let the other players do what they want? Why don't you just give us a loan system for everyone that gets rid of these possible scams? What happened to the "a trade is final" policy? And please, if this is true you must be planning to give back every item ever lost because of a scam where you said "a trade is final." Otherwise you would be hypocrites.

71 pages on this ?

Without reading much, but def. Marco's comments on this, I can only say highly amusing (especially those new signatures).

I will probably get shot down again for this post, but I have said long before Marco & MA made an official statement that any private loan business cannot be their aim and consequently they followed this with a clear message to all ppl out here.

What I fail to understand is all those ppl moaning and whining ... If you don't like it, play something else, leave EU ... I for sure would not miss the majority of the 'shady' players (quote from Marco's post). And before you start on freedom of enterprise etc. I can only encounter that by saying that MA = God here ... If you don't like it, again don't let the door hit you on your way out.

I will most certainly do not use any loan business that is charging loan-shark interest rates and if all players would follow suit, those 71 pages along MA's official statement would be ... well for the dumpster ...

Have a good day (I'll have another look when we're at page 142, lol)

ILW

In Love With said:

71 pages on this ?

Without reading much, but def. Marco's comments on this, I can only say highly amusing (especially those new signatures).

I will probably get shot down again for this post, but I have said long before Marco & MA made an official statement that any private loan business cannot be their aim and consequently they followed this with a clear message to all ppl out here.

What I fail to understand is all those ppl moaning and whining ... If you don't like it, play something else, leave EU ... I for sure would not miss the majority of the 'shady' players (quote from Marco's post). And before you start on freedom of enterprise etc. I can only encounter that by saying that MA = God here ... If you don't like it, again don't let the door hit you on your way out.

I will most certainly do not use any loan business that is charging loan-shark interest rates and if all players would follow suit, those 71 pages along MA's official statement would be ... well for the dumpster ...

Have a good day (I'll have another look when we're at page 142, lol)

ILW

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Thats one of the most stupid comments on this thread i have seen.
1. I for sure would not miss the majority of the 'shady' players (quote from Marco's post) Intressting how you use that "quote". Are you a politcian in RL?
2. If you don´t care, why do you care on this?
3. If MA screws you, your comment will be: "MA is God, i am small, i will obey" lol

People with such an attitude in RL make RL suck more and more. Its like: "oh, you are black and got kicked your butt because of that? Your problem, if you don´t like it, go away"

I hate that my english is so bad, else you would have gotten a real nice post form me, i think you know what i mean...

In Love With said:

Without reading much, but def. Marco's comments on this, I can only say highly amusing (especially those new signatures).

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You always amuse me so I'm glad we could return the favour

In Love With said:

71 pages on this ?
I can only encounter that by saying that MA = God here ... If you don't like it, again don't let the door hit you on your way out.

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MA=God for you?? you really amusing me
a little advice : pray a god that hears you

In Love With said:

71 pages on this ?

Without reading much, but def. Marco's comments on this, I can only say highly amusing (especially those new signatures).

I will probably get shot down again for this post, but I have said long before Marco & MA made an official statement that any private loan business cannot be their aim and consequently they followed this with a clear message to all ppl out here.

What I fail to understand is all those ppl moaning and whining ... If you don't like it, play something else, leave EU ... I for sure would not miss the majority of the 'shady' players (quote from Marco's post). And before you start on freedom of enterprise etc. I can only encounter that by saying that MA = God here ... If you don't like it, again don't let the door hit you on your way out.

I will most certainly do not use any loan business that is charging loan-shark interest rates and if all players would follow suit, those 71 pages along MA's official statement would be ... well for the dumpster ...

Have a good day (I'll have another look when we're at page 142, lol)

ILW

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Not one of the more sophisticated posts I've seen... But then again, what more could we expect, there just really isn't a good argument for limiting players rights. Keep going ILW some day you'll get an item named after you...

In Love With said:

What I fail to understand is all those ppl moaning and whining ... If you don't like it, play something else, leave EU ... I for sure would not miss the majority of the 'shady' players (quote from Marco's post). And before you start on freedom of enterprise etc. I can only encounter that by saying that MA = God here ... If you don't like it, again don't let the door hit you on your way out.

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then if you dont like this thread please stop posting here. you are contradicting yourself here.

i like this universe, but sometimes i dont like how MA handle their business... and as a paying customer i feel its my right to let them know when they do something wrong. i wont quit because of it and i think no one should. telling people to quit like that is just plain silly. we all want this universe to be the best it can be. and if we, the customers, cant raise our voice about certain things we cant improve anything. it would only be a oneway conversation from MA telling us what to do, how to do it, when to do it and how much to pay.

MA does not know whats best for the customers, and the customers does not know whats best for MA. only by working together we can find the best solutions.

if you like a consept but disagree with a detail... wouldnt it be better to try to change that little thing instead of just throwing in the towel and leave? behavior like that wont get you far in life.

i wont quit because i dont like the no loot message.
i wont quit because i dont like losing money.
i wont quit when i see people doing stuff i dont like ingame.
i wont quit the forum after reading your post.

however i might consider quitting if issues like this or worse happens consequently without any consideration shown to us by MA. at that point it would be hopeless and i know it wont come to that, because that is the day that MA will go out of business.

In Love With said:

I can only encounter that by saying that MA = God here ... If you don't like it, again don't let the door hit you on your way out.)

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This comes from the same person who kept whinning and moaning about A 106 prices and inflation a while back and how all people were wrong about current prices but you . Don't you love how dynamic Entropia is ;-)

Maybe someone should have told you then that MA is God who controls the economy and all items on it or was this a new epiphany?

Like Sob said, if you don't like the thread, don't let the door hit you on your way out

sob said:

then if you dont like this thread please stop posting here. you are contradicting yourself here.

i like this universe, but sometimes i dont like how MA handle their business... and as a paying customer i feel its my right to let them know when they do something wrong. i wont quit because of it and i think no one should. telling people to quit like that is just plain silly. we all want this universe to be the best it can be. and if we, the customers, cant raise our voice about certain things we cant improve anything. it would only be a oneway conversation from MA telling us what to do, how to do it, when to do it and how much to pay.

MA does not know whats best for the customers, and the customers does not know whats best for MA. only by working together we can find the best solutions.

if you like a consept but disagree with a detail... wouldnt it be better to try to change that little thing instead of just throwing in the towel and leave? behavior like that wont get you far in life.

i wont quit because i dont like the no loot message.
i wont quit because i dont like losing money.
i wont quit when i see people doing stuff i dont like ingame.
i wont quit the forum after reading your post.

however i might consider quitting if issues like this or worse happens consequently without any consideration shown to us by MA. at that point it would be hopeless and i know it wont come to that, because that is the day that MA will go out of business.

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Damn I wish I had the patience to answer a nitwit the way you did here.
+rep from me sob

In Love With said:

...MA = God here ...

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Not exactly.
Here, MA = purveyor, where we = paying customers... well, many of us are paying customers.

As a customer we have a right to ask for certain things in a product.

Sure, we may not be able to get leather lined cupholders in a Yugo, but we'd probably buy the car anyway.

Now if there was something missing, like say the engine... something that was core to the operation of the whole thing. Would you not be inclined to tell the dealer "There's something really wrong with this one, and I won't buy it unless it's fixed."?

That, in essence, is what I believe we're trying to do here.

AG

TrinketSoul said:

Not one of the more sophisticated posts I've seen... But then again, what more could we expect, there just really isn't a good argument for limiting players rights. Keep going ILW some day you'll get an item named after you...

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ofcourse there are good arguments to limit players rights, you just dont wish to see it, or think the opposit arguments are better and therefor dont care about these. but that still doesnt mean they dont exist. most obvious one would ofcourse be prevent of scamming and keeping yours and my money safe.

but more important, why I dont see why having a banking service should be a right especially not whithout any responsiblity which you wont have since all trades are final. so the only thing that would keep track of your buisness is you and your own sense of whats right and wrong.
All games have rules, thats what make them intresting no matter what tha actual reason for the rule may be.

__
And for the siggie people, no the banner in itself may not seem that negative but together with this thread it is, well thats my opinion atleast to me it says that this one action will kill all private enterprising in PE if you dont manage to convince MA to change their mind.

And yes there are ranting in this thread, not the worst by far but still.


Last of all, have any of you consider the positive things? (I assume you have but thought more about the negative then the good in it). This action from MA will make more IRL companies feel safe to invest in PE which in long term may improve this universe for everyone. More compaines= higher money flow, more pr which means more players, and in the long run Mindark will grow both in personel and serverpark. which means more stability and more fun for everyone which in itself means even more players and more companies and so on. Yes this is ofcourse the most optimistic view on it, but I for one find it far more beliveable then the most negative one.

But I say again for everyone, i respect all of your opinons and that you stand up for what you belive and dont just sit quiet and hope for the best

MA = God

in a sense that no matter what you do, MA will not change their decision on that (and why should they, there has been an investment of $400.00 from a small group of ppl and put that vs. some 'shady' players running the same business ... Seriously, you really reckon some signatures and some -reps for Marco is gonna get you what you want).

Sure it doesn't seem to be fair to Teilk since he had the idea first, but lets face it, banks exist for centuries now and it was only a matter of time for MA to pick up on such a splendid opportunity to generate money for further development etc. so if you look at it from this angle, no of course MA did not steal the idea from Teilk ...

ILW

PS: Thought I posted that in response to clarify how I see MA = God (and now MA do me a favour and drop me a nice little imp-21 from a drone please so I can spend the 10k on ammo skilling, hehe)

sob said:

i wont quit because i dont like the no loot message.
i wont quit because i dont like losing money.
i wont quit when i see people doing stuff i dont like ingame.
i wont quit the forum after reading your post.

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is is not hard to see why twister loves you.

+rep sob for making sense on this forum where ppl so specialize in angry nonsense that makes no sense.

truly, you are professional.

In Love With said:

Sure it doesn't seem to be fair to Teilk since he had the idea first, but lets face it, banks exist for centuries now and it was only a matter of time for MA to pick up on such a splendid opportunity to generate money for further development etc. so if you look at it from this angle, no of course MA did not steal the idea from Teilk ...

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even telik will tell you he didn't think up the idea. but it is rather rude to see ma attempt a crack down, especially since the rouge bank was being run by such assets to the community in the game.

i voiced my comments earlier, no need to rehash them. in fact, i believe this thread has run it's course. but it's still poop, and marco and ma should recent their comments, or at least phrase them in a way that explains their take on it, without using the word "scammer."

Roth said:

but more important, why I dont see why having a banking service should be a right especially not whithout any responsiblity which you wont have since all trades are final. so the only thing that would keep track of your buisness is you and your own sense of whats right and wrong.
All games have rules, thats what make them intresting no matter what tha actual reason for the rule may be.

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All games have rules (ie prohibitions), true. EU basically has two kinds:

• The type you can't break, they are basically technical restraints. For example, you can't sell a 1 ped Opalo to the TT for 1k ped. You can't physically rob another player.
• The bug exploit prohibition. In this case, it IS technically possible to do something, but you are aware it's a bug, and so you shouldn't do it. Like trapping a spider and scoring an ATH.

Now, for the first time, MA have effectively prohibited something that is in fact a basic property of the game, the PvP trade. You can still trade, but if you create for yourself a context of a pawnshop, all of a sudden your trades fall into the category of scamming. It is the equivalent of us calling people who buy low and sell high "dirty resellers". It's essentially a matter of perception.

It's not a bug they're exploiting. There's no technical restraint against lending people money for collateral (in fact, people are still allowed to do it on an individual basis). It's just that MA perceives it as an unwanted activity, and prohibits it. The sheer unfairness of it is demonstrated by the fact that they can't actually ban it in the technical sense. Also, there are no victims, all parties are consenting players.

MA are overstepping their own bounds here. They will be forced to rewrite the EULA and create a monstrosity, because it will contain limitations on your usage of normal game functions that are based solely on the fact that it hurts THEM, and no one else. And don't say it hurts the licensed banks, because MA wouldn't care about that either except that that in turn will hurt them too.

Try and imagine the wording of the EULA. Expressly forbidding certain types of enterprise.
When hospitals come to Calypso, will fapping services be prohibited unless by licensed docters and nurses?
When pets can take part in combat, will only licensed vets be allowed to heal them?

I can think of many other examples. Will the EULA have to reflect all these changes, prohibiting but not disabling certain types of gameplay?

This move by MA stinks. The principle of it stinks. That's all there's to it.

exactly.. if MA doesn't want us doing a certain activity they should make it technically impossible to do so. not tell us they consider us to be criminals and will ban us.

of course rules about exploiting bugs should be enforced.. but the bugs should also be corrected.

but to think they could enforce such a rule about loaning items/peds.. without making it technically impossible to do so.. well thats just silly.. will they be hiring MA police to police the forums and chat channels for anyone offering such services? will they look to all the different forum communities or just enforce it here?

the whole thing is silly..

dbelinfante said:

All games have rules (ie prohibitions), true. EU basically has two kinds:

• The type you can't break, they are basically technical restraints. For example, you can't sell a 1 ped Opalo to the TT for 1k ped. You can't physically rob another player.
• The bug exploit prohibition. In this case, it IS technically possible to do something, but you are aware it's a bug, and so you shouldn't do it. Like trapping a spider and scoring an ATH.

This move by MA stinks. The principle of it stinks. That's all there's to it.

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[Removed part of contet in quote just to make it shorter]
not true at all, there are loads of other rules.
you are not allowed to harass other players, sounds fair? what if someone wants to start a proffesional harassment service?
you are not allowed to make signs and other pc with pornographic material. what if someone wants to make a gallery with a pornographic influence.
just read the EULA if you want to find more.
when it comes to the principle part it really isnt much diffrence, its a limitation to all players possibilities to create their own enterprises for the greater good.

also it works the same way in the real world, alot of diffrent business types need licenses. diffrent ones in diffrent countries ofcourse, but im pretty sure banking is one of them, others may be alcohol, gambling, medical etc.