Am I getting scammed for 200K? Help please!

[aia]

Next time if you want to invest a lot of money into something, talk to the people running the show. At least get some sort of contract saying that in the event of your account being locked or the game being shut down you will get something back.

One thing to notice is that the other banks are owned by a special bank avatar. Meaning, that the bank will be protected from being locked as long as the bank managing avatar doesn't do anyting stupid.

Dunno how it is in this case; if MA did not provide the argus bank with a bank managing avatar (putting bank at risk) or if MA did provide the argus bank with the bank managing avatar given the name "Jolana") that got herself locked.

 

[Lavawalker]

The system can also lock all avatars involved in (directly and indirectly) in the event of money washing.

Example:

Fraud CC was used to buy Entropia PED vouchers;
UKash/PayNova/whatever - PED voucher put into the system.

Fraud PED used to purchase an amount of resources/items by newbie account, items placed in the bank - Loan PED money received.

Newbie account takes PED and drops it on the ground in a busy location,
Second newbie account picks up PED, takes it to another busy location.
Third picks up ped and drops it in another location.

Legit account picks it up - Money effectively washed - Most likely spends it on other stuff to sell at later date.

Ofc the Entropia system does not have any qualifying mechanism that stops any newcomer account from using the Entropia banking system.

ie. Registered information on the participant's account MA side to 100% confirm the identity of an account holder. Valid CC, provided passport or RL bank details which should be confirmed before activating that participant to use Entropia's extended financial services ingame - Instead of any tom, dick or hairy harry.

 

[MistyDawn]

Having paid US$200,000 upfront I'm sure MA/FPC wouldn't lock you for 'no reason'

It might not be apparent right now but I'm sure there's a justifiable reason behind it.

However, having said that I find it odd that:

... in reading your initial post it seems you only had e-mail contacts and no direct line number for someone at MA

...with this amount of irl cash at stake you come to EF to air your grievances

...you don't appear to have read the EULA lately (if at all)

I don't mean to cast aspersions, but for US$200,000 I would have done things differently to be honest.

Perhaps even lunch with Marco and Jan whilst my lawyer reads through some sort of contract before I signed on the dotted line.



I hope this is resolved swiftly with a favourable outcome.

 

[safara]

Heehee - this sort of stuff is just so funny LOL

This is a computer game. Yes you can deposit money in here to get game credits, and if you make some, take them out etc.

But it is still a computer game.

The items people are lured into buying for many credits (that they have deposited real money for) are, at the end of the day, just pixels.

No value at all really - yet people still do this.

Unless the organisation that runs the game attaches some tangible value to these items, to back up your investment. Maybe this is why some of the new UN(L) stuff has such a high TT value (apart from tying up money ingame)

But they dont LOL

Instead we get stuff like

MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS YOU SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE TOTAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED INTO THE INVOLVED ACCOUNT BY SAID PARTICIPANT UNDER SIX MONTHS PERIOD PRIOR TO THE INCIDENT.

Therefore, the only comeback you have in any case is the total of the last 6 months deposit for your account.

How much have yo deposited in the last 6 months Jolana? This is all they are entitled to give you back should they decide to delete your account.

That is it. LOL

Fine for those who put money into the "game" and can afford to lose it.

But for those who are banking on their "investments" to grow and have any sort of security in case they dont - a computer game is not the place to do it

 

[Lavawalker]

Therefore, the only comeback you have in any case is the total of the last 6 months deposit for your account.

How much have yo deposited in the last 6 months Jolana? This is all they are entitled to give you back should they decide to delete your account.

That is it. LOL

Fine for those who put money into the "game" and can afford to lose it.

But for those who are banking on their "investments" to grow and have any sort of security in case they dont - a computer game is not the place to do it

Remember EULA's are not the law, they are only guidelines.
A judge in a court of law always has the final say in the end, not MindArk.

MindArk is not above the law and there are many laws in Sweden which can be invoked that cover these circumstances involving invested real world money into any organisation and its service or product as a stated owned/purchased/leased item and/or as a process which is part of the operational functioning of your involvement with that organisation on a day to day basis.

On that note - granted MindArk may come across as a dodgy company and may even act like a dodgy company a lot of the time in the way they go about doing things.

However they have not proven to be a dodgy company (In doing the dirty);
Just a young/in-experienced company in reference to the such.

I would advise you make direct contact with both Marco & Frank C and obtain their direct contact details for future reference.

If you require them still, PM me and I will pass them through.
$ 200,000 USD is no joking matter. Communication from MA should be second to none when such an account has for any reason incurred a temporary lock.

 

[Shew]

OK... thanks, Xzion. My point it this:

The bank owner has no control on which avatar is using his or her bank. In my example above, let's assume there is a problem with the ModMerc "Crafterz" dropped off at the bank... maybe it was scammed, stolen, named as an item of interest in a support case.

Does anyone else see where I am going with this...? IRL, a bank owner (or worker at the bank) will examine the creditials of the customers. This does not happen in EU. It can't happen in EU. I suspect (can be read elsewhere) that some form of transaction took place at this bank with either suspect funds or suspect items. MA|FPC is doing the virtual reality version of "taking someone downtown for questioning". By locking the accounts, MA|FPC can be assured a dialogue will be started.

If someone was doing something illegal (or against the EULA) does anyone think that person would simply respond to an email from MA|FPC? Hell no... lock the account. That will certainly get them talking or the player in question will fade away (which is fine too).

Everyone bashing MA|FPC for their actions should consider this. After all, the next person saved from a scammer might be one of you.

EDIT:


We have a winner!!!!

You are correct. But look further.

For example you're a new person after seeing all the publicity of ND buying the asteroid and MA touting that you can invest real money in EU and make real money.

So you do, you take a loan (ND did to get his asteroid) and buy your in game bank.

Then through no fault of your own, your account is locked, and now your investment is in limbo.

You have payments that you have to make IRL, but you are unable to make them because your investment is in limbo, and MA will not provide you any information other than "internal investigation because of exploit."

That is a pretty shotty way to handle business. They treat the RCE in a manner that should make people that are considering investing to think twice.

 

[Rayne Jade]

...On that note - granted MindArk may come across as a dodgy company and may even act like a dodgy company a lot of the time for the most part...

Granted... but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. They are, after all, looking after their best interests as well as the interests of their employees and shareholders.

 

[Rayne Jade]

...Then through no fault of your own, your account is locked, and now your investment is in limbo...

That was exactly my point. The bank owner cannot control who uses the bank. Any nutjob can walk in there and make a deal without prior screening.

 

[safara]

Remember EULA's are not the law, they are only guidelines.
A judge in a court of law always has the final say in the end, not MindArk.

MindArk is not above the law and there are many laws in Sweden which can be invoked that cover these circumstances involving invested real world money into any organisation and its service or product as a stated owned/purchased/leased item and/or as a process which is part of the operational functioning of your involvement with that organisation on a day to day basis.

Oh, I quite agree.

So, when you make that big deposit to "invest" be aware that you may have to instigate a legal process, probably in a foreign country, to recoup any losses should you wish to challenge the EULA of the service you are "investing" in.

 

[Shew]

That was exactly my point. The bank owner cannot control who uses the bank. Any nutjob can walk in there and make a deal without prior screening.

Yes, but MA is causing a lot of collateral damage.

With REAL money, and in this case, a lot, they need to find a better way of handling situations like this.

Perhaps, just freeze the assets in question. Not the whole bank, that is just too far, potentially casuing undue financial hardship on someone that has placed some faith in MA.

If found, the bank was not a willing particiant in a exploit or cheat, then MA SHOULD financially compensate said bank. That is IF they want to maintain and REGAIN trust.

 

[Lavawalker]

Granted... but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. They are, after all, looking after their best interests as well as the interests of their employees and shareholders.

Aye for sure.

Thus far over the past 5 years documented in following MindArk - They have been in every situation, reactive to issues - Not proactive in having ensured that such incidents do not occur. (Tell tale signs of a young inexperienced organisation in the market)

However they do change when they see something like this that can damage further their reputation, growth & investment potential in the market.

200k usd is a hell of a lot, even $ 10 - 20k usd is a lot;
Of which a couple of LAs are due to hit the market sometime in the next week.

Not a very exciting prospect for investors when they see things like this occuring, without proper communication from the service provider upon the lock occuring - Even when they do not know why.

Below is some rocket science stuff MA should further consider as they mature in time as a financial platform provider.

Phone rings or personal email sent:

Hi Jolana,

We would like to inform you as one of the Bank, LA, Hangar, Spacestation, Mall invested owners on Planet Calypso and/or flagged in our database with virtual assets and/or PED equity of a cummulative market value in excess of 50,000 PED, that the system has locked your account.

This contact is to let you know the such has occured;

We are further looking into the reasons why this has occured and shall be in contact with you in the near future with the findings of our investigation as to why your account was locked in the investigation process underway.

Kind Regards,
Entropia Support.

It would have avoided this entire thread and all the conspiracy & probable reasoning for what has occured which will obviously reach other potential investors & analyst eyes, involved partner companies and also the media.

 

[Dab]

If the transaction which caused the lock involved the bank, then the banks would have been locked and reopened many times in the past. I'm sure the money trail in a lot of scams, credit card frauds etc. in the past led straight to the banks.

This case is most likely the result of something the avatar in question has done or is suspected of doing. It would be nice if they would at least categorize it and send you an email when your account is locked instead of you having to contact them to find out why. Children run this company, not adults.

The account has been locked for a month, the banks weren't functional until well after VU 10.0 I believe?

tinfoil hat/ Why has Kimmi been travelling so much and now is locked? He is with the Norwegian mafia and has been handling their drug and mercenary money lauering from the Congo through EU banks. /hats off

The forum is at least interesting this week.

On a side note: does the IT industry have malpractice insurance?

 

[Lavawalker]

Oh, I quite agree.

So, when you make that big deposit to "invest" be aware that you may have to instigate a legal process, probably in a foreign country, to recoup any losses should you wish to challenge the EULA of the service you are "investing" in.

Yes, including finding sound legal representation residing in that country to service you in the case of incident - And ofc for advise before even considering any such virtual world asset(s) of significant value.

This is natural course in the financial investment sector - The service MindArk provides is no different.

Virtual investing is an emerging market, so sound legal advise & representation is even moreso important than for general investing.

 

[Shew]

On a side note: does the IT industry have malpractice insurance?

I wonder if Lloyds of London will insure a virtual item in the event of a loss due to mishandling by company, unknown involvement of exploit or cheat.

 

[Rayne Jade]

...The account has been locked for a month, the banks weren't functional until well after VU 10.0 I believe?

ENTROPIA UNIVERSE VERSION UPDATE 10.0
2009-08-18
Systems in VU 10.0
Version Update 10.0 will begin with the most widely used systems:
•Hunting
•Mining
•Crafting
•PvP Trade
•Auction
•CND Asteroid
•Banks <--------------
•Estates
•Shops
•Land Areas
•PvP Combat
•Society
•Friends List
•Ad System
•Participant Content
•Terminals
•Items
•Garment Customization
•Inventory
•Storage
•Hall of Fame
•Teleport
•Chat
•Keyboard Mapping
•Dashboard
•Map
•GUI
•Gifts

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

I can't speak to "reason" in your question. I can state that when MA locked my account in the timeframe that I was organizing the VU 7.x sweat party protest, MA locked my account. I got no notice that the account was locked other than discovering it the next time I logged in. I wrote MA support directly and made inquiry, and their initial response was that I had violated the EULA.

I wrote back specifically asking what sections of it I had violated and by what action I had taken. They responded witht he number and letter of the EULA section.

I asked for clarification, specifically what had I done that violateed the spedicid section of the EULA. They declined to respond in any informative way.

Whatever is going on, I hope it is quickly resolved.

When they unlocked it did they give any more details.


I'm not familiar with the sweat party protest ..probably at a time when i wasn't very active.

 

[Silver Viking]

After reading all the posts in this tread I´m left with the impression that there are two different matters that leads to locked accounts, they might or might not have anthing to do with eachother.

First, as a flaw in the realease of VU10.0 the banned players are let back in, noticeing this they immediately try to shift whatever they have over to other avas, using old friends ( that know, or dont know that there have been a glitch letting the banned ones in) , second avas or whatever to do so.
This ofc is MAs fault, and now MA tries to "clean up", tracking al the items and peds that have been moved. To do this, and to stop the flow, they have to temp lock some accounts.
When it comes to the TS, a bankowner, (s)he may have been locked due to being involved in this ( knowingly or unknowingly)
but... reading Stars post about the attemted selling of a uber gun (Mod 4400 or something ) and having read about similar " incidents" ( a uber item dont sell a asking price, is put on auc for a bit lower, and at the same time, a bank offers more than the BO for the same item, but doesnt have sufficient funds to actually buy the item) here on the forum in the past, dont remember the bank in question that time, but it wasnt Anshe or ND, it just might be that MA have banned the TS to investigate a possible price manipulation scam.
Like I said at first, this is the impression I´m left with after reading the tread, if it is actually right or wrong I don´t know, but, to me atleast, it seems like a plausable explanation to the temp locks.

No matter what the case is here, I do agree 100% that when MA locks an acount, there should be atleast an Email sendt to the ava affected that say something about what has happened, and some contact information and who to contact for futher info on the matter.

S V

Sorry for my broken English

 

[Miles]

2 Points

Alright, I updated my first post with current info. I think I will update on original post since reply can be easily lost due to amount of replies.
And about "something fishy" and rest of assumptions: I posted support case to straight after I discover I was locked. every couple days they were replying like "investigation is going on, we will contact you soon bla-bla...". Naturally I was hoping that official way - support case - is a right mean for contact/sort thigns out with MA. It worked as a charm before so I did believe it should work now as well. That is a reason I wasn`t trying to phone/email/bang on door to MA. Right now I see that this is going nowhere and started looking for any other means of comunicating with MA/FPC people. I agree that some items I recently acquired might be somehow stealed/exploited or whatever, but I think this is risk in every trade we are doing in EU. As I told before I made trades with people considered trustworthy and we didn`t make any shady deals. Plain item trade. If some of those items were illegal somehow, MA could let me know and then we can sort this out. However they didn`t ask me a single question about that matter.

See sections in bold for emphasis, are two points that seem to have been overlooked in this thread.

1st Section - the minor point - MA has been replying to the OP on a regular basis. The fact that they cannot say more than "Investigation Ongoing", almost certainly for legal reasons, does not change the fact that they have responded.

2nd Section - the major point - a) Makes it clear that OP knows what this is about, and more importantly b) indicates that these items were not acquired in bank transactions, but rather via P2P transactions, and the OP cannot hide behind the anonymous nature of bank transactions. I would say banking has nothing to do with it, but then there is also Mercury's post....

Anyway, talk about the nature of bank transactions is irrelevant if this was the result of P2P trades. Also, the idea that the OP doesn't know why they are locked is a joke, so pissing on MA for not saying so is besides the point. MA can't say for obvious legal reasons, and OP knows anyway.

I stand to be corrected, but unless I am misunderstanding what the OP said in the post quoted above, well, it gets curiouser and curiouser...


Miles

 

[Mercury]

The BGH was a long while ago. I'd venture to guess that that particular incident was entirely unrelated. It was just posted to show some character issues were possible.

 

[timmmers]

So.
Buy a bank (using other people's cash)
Sod off to Outer Mongolia IRL and don't run it leaving players who did business with that bank in the poo.

Something there seem likely to cause players problems to you?

t

 

[Skippie]

OK... let me ask a question here... does the owner of the bank have any say on who does a transaction there...? A scenario:

An avatar with the name of.... let's say... "Crafterz" ( ) goes into one of the banks. "Crafterz" decides to give up an item for loan... maybe a ModMerc. The bank teller handles the transaction based on what the bank owner has already provided, right? So if the bank owner has already set a loan amount at 15,000 PED for a ModMerc then the transaction takes place. The bank owner has the ModMerc and "Crafterz" gets 15,000 PED. If "Crafterz" defaults on the loan, the bank owner keeps the ModMerc.

Is that how it works...?

banks were not functional at the beginning of vu 10.0, therefore this lock was due to a private trade, i.e. not an afk bank loan.

although banking was scheduled to be functional it was bugged for several weeks at the time of this supposed lock.

 

[McCormick]

aahhh the banks

 

[Mercury]

aahhh the banks

I know you knew...

 

[Lavawalker]

See sections in bold for emphasis, are two points that seem to have been overlooked in this thread.

1st Section - the minor point - MA has been replying to the OP on a regular basis. The fact that they cannot say more than "Investigation Ongoing", almost certainly for legal reasons, does not change the fact that they have responded.

2nd Section - the major point - a) Makes it clear that OP knows what this is about, and more importantly b) indicates that these items were not acquired in bank transactions, but rather via P2P transactions, and the OP cannot hide behind the anonymous nature of bank transactions. I would say banking has nothing to do with it, but then there is also Mercury's post....

Anyway, talk about the nature of bank transactions is irrelevant if this was the result of P2P trades. Also, the idea that the OP doesn't know why they are locked is a joke, so pissing on MA for not saying so is besides the point. MA can't say for obvious legal reasons, and OP knows anyway.

I stand to be corrected, but unless I am misunderstanding what the OP said in the post quoted above, well, it gets curiouser and curiouser...


Miles

I must be missing your points.

Jolana from what I understand does not know for a fact if these items are stolen. She made a P2P direct trade for them - Nothing shady about it.

Jolana has a 200k USD investment account locked for some reason while agreeing ok - Maybe these items speculatively could have been yet .

Why does Jolana have to have a 200k USD revenue generating asset account locked for a period longer than 1 working day (24-hours maximum) for something that was done normally in everyday trades in Entropia.

On the basis of what Jolana has stated as being honest in posting here.

If Jolana is not at fault for this lock and if the lock interferes with incurring financial loss or the ability to sustain financial commitments to a real world bank or invested parties whom financed the purchase of the MA virtual bank asset;

Then MA has to face the prospects of having a *potential* claim of financial damages put under their nose to compensate any such losses incurred or additional fees needing to be paid to real life commitments attached to the purchase of the asset.

This is all part and parcel of real world financial organisation operation and legalities;

MA has as much a legal responsibility to Jolana to resolve this in a timeframe that does not put them in a position where a claim can be put against them as she has to MA to have not knowingly directly committed a crime which has incurred the lock.

In her response, every couple of days is not acceptable to ensure investment earning potential is not disrupted.

No one is pissing all over MA however:

1. Just locking such an account without notification leaving the participant to do the followup is unacceptable.

And highly unprofessional - 200k USD is not peanuts.

2. Taking longer than 24 hours to provide crystal clear communication as to issue and proposed remedy with ETA is definitely unacceptable.

MA is still learning the ropes of being a responsible, professional and ethical financial institution. (not quite there on any of them yet)

Something they better pull their act up with quick smart if they wish to evolve in the market as a respectable entity in the hope to attract future significant investors to the platform.

Thus far on this front, MA sucks badly (To be blunt about it) - Other than attracting suckers who have not undertaken prior research in relation to past incidents.

I will follow the progress and outcome of this case to understand better if the action taken by MindArk is professional and ethical in respecting the finance of another invested into their service for a revenue generating asset based on final outcome of what had occured and the resolution timeframes involved for the later revealed offending incident.

The point being, you do not enter this market sector doing the talk;
If you are incapable of *properly* doing the walk that goes with it.

 

[Phil Surtees]

Another related point to all of this: How does it effect withdrawals, for those fortunate enough to be in that position? Is every avatar who made a deal with any of these people potentially screwed? I don't mean the primary actors, but say someone else who made an unrelated deal in good faith?
Of course, I'm assuming that MA prevented to primary offenders from making a withdrawal. If they didn't, that would be a real problem.
The MA formula is "no cash in, no peds out".

 

[Miles]

I must be missing your points...

And looking back, my points come across far more accusatory than intended. I'll try to clarify on both fronts.

I don't know Jolana from Adam (or Eve, I guess) and have no knowledge of her actions. As such I presume her innocence.

My main point was that this has nothing to with the bank. Jolana has or had possession of items suspected to be stolen or exploited. Her innocence or guilt should stem from her knowledge at the time of those transactions, not now. She claims to have acted in good faith, and without contrary knowledge I will take her word - it is not my job to judge. I find the story curious, and I am not the only one.

The nature of her investment is completely beside the point, as this investigation must stem from her actions as an individual. I was only trying to make the point that all the talk in this thread about banks and bank procedure is moot.

My other point was that Jolana says she did contact MA promptly, and MA responded periodically even though they had nothing to tell her. In light of everyone who said she behaved strangely by not doing anything, or that MA just ignored her, neither of those claims seem to be true.

The fact remains that regardless of what MA did or didn't tell her, she seems to know quite well that her involvement with these items is the cause of her being part of this investigation, fairly or not. If she is telling the truth she should be cleared, and I agree, the sooner the better. If the truth lies elsewhere, then that is another matter.

To expect MA to put forth any details of an investigation to a party to that investigation, let alone publicly, seems wrong to me, and so I don't find that surprising in the least. Obviously that is a point of disagreement for many.




Miles

 

[Lavawalker]

And looking back, my points come across far more accusatory than intended. I'll try to clarify on both fronts.

I don't know Jolana from Adam (or Eve, I guess) and have no knowledge of her actions. As such I presume her innocence.

My main point was that this has nothing to with the bank. Jolana has or had possession of items suspected to be stolen or exploited. Her innocence or guilt should stem from her knowledge at the time of those transactions, not now. She claims to have acted in good faith, and without contrary knowledge I will take her word - it is not my job to judge. I find the story curious, and I am not the only one.

The nature of her investment is completely beside the point, as this investigation must stem from her actions as an individual. I was only trying to make the point that all the talk in this thread about banks and bank procedure is moot.

My other point was that Jolana says she did contact MA promptly, and MA responded periodically even though they had nothing to tell her. In light of everyone who said she behaved strangely by not doing anything, or that MA just ignored her, neither of those claims seem to be true.

The fact remains that regardless of what MA did or didn't tell her, she seems to know quite well that her involvement with these items is the cause of her being part of this investigation, fairly or not. If she is telling the truth she should be cleared, and I agree, the sooner the better. If the truth lies elsewhere, then that is another matter.

To expect MA to put forth any details of an investigation to a party to that investigation, let alone publicly, seems wrong to me, and so I don't find that surprising in the least. Obviously that is a point of disagreement for many.




Miles

In relation to the bank - it has everything to do with it.

The bank asset is tied to her personal account being both the owner and operator of the bank, she has not required a secondary account handler login.

If the lockdown is due to the purchase of stolen item(s);

It would be much the same as all of CND, NeverdieBank, all ND LAs being locked down if ND was to purchase an item - Stolen or not from another in P2P trade in Entropia.

It would not be upto ND to double check if the item is stolen, he is simply buying the item off another participant.

Locking down NDs account along with all revenue generating assets, including CND, ND Bank & all LAs would be totally unacceptable being on the receiving end - For an extended period of time.

In this case, Jolana has stated her account is locked, *she* followed it up and is till to date hanging in the lurgy as to what the hell is going on, unable to manage or update the FA Bank data, unable to list items on the market for sale to generate revenue, unable to withdrawl to pay off her RL financial commitments that financed its purchase in the first place - nadda.

This is where MindArk becomes responsible and liable for any reprecussions of their investigative actions upon Jolana's investment if she happens to turn out to be not at fault for whatever is going on.

^^ And that is the danger in the financial sector, the investor can sue for damages or potentially as an exit from the investment, taking it through the courts and most likely coming out in full with investment purchase and all her TT value in Entropia.

Downing a bank would be a massive hit for Entropia - participant, public, investor and partner relations.

So unless MA has a damn good reason for taking so long, they put themselves at risk of the such.

In the end - we shall have to see what the outcome is on this case.

.

 

[Kimmi]

I didnt read all posts... but I read your opening and all I can say is... welcome to the club...

 

[niky0404]

this is realy not good for the game...an explination will be realy nice

 

[Xavier_Jr]

¿¿¿????

I dont understand it. ¿She lost 200k USD? ¿How can is possible that?

If that is true... will be a very bad antecedent for the game.