FYI: Definitive loot pool answer

[Profit]

Before reading your post I have one thing to say - impressive novel for a 1st post!
You're either a journalist, a 2nd account or an incredibly insightful newbie


[edit]
Oh! Broke in-game... I can relate. lol
Formulation Scientist... I was close with Journalist in the sense you both deal with insane amounts of text lol xD

 

[Witte]

why are you still linking loot pools to the question of gambling? they are entirely seperate questions. just as i doesnt prove loot pools, it doesnt disprove them: in fact it say nothing at all about them.

I never made that link, but for quite a few people that was the most obvious reason for personal loot pools.

Correct me if im wrong, but I believe pachinko parlors in Japan let you trade the pachinko balls in for some kind of token or item that is intrinsically worthless, but then people can then sell this item to shops or trading terminals elsewhere? The Entropia not being a casino may be as simple as them following a system similar to that.

I think the fact that the tokens are worth money at all is enough for the inspection. I'm not sure if it really matter if it's an officially recognized type of currency or not. I don't think casino token's are officially recognized either. But I'm no expert so not sure .

 

[Legion]

Correct me if im wrong, but I believe pachinko parlors in Japan let you trade the pachinko balls in for some kind of token or item that is intrinsically worthless, but then people can then sell this item to shops or trading terminals elsewhere? The Entropia not being a casino may be as simple as them following a system similar to that.

nope that's not it. The inspection told me this if you win something and then sell it to someone else it's still a lottery. Not the exact words but that was the meaning. ie the selling and trading part of eu does not not make it a lottery.

 

[Joat]

Basicly, when it comes to gambling or not, the question is if it's a lottery
(randomness) or a contest.
If someone has the chance to win more then others, it's a lottery.

So EU must have a system where the payout is controlled, based on our
previous actions against the system.
If we join a event, the winner must win due to he/she were most effective
and gathered most points to become a winner.

So what's the difference between a event and ordinary loot? Non imo.
All loot will come due to predetermened settings, when it comes to the
actual TT-value. Whats in the loot, can have some randomness thou'.
The one who get it must be the one who has enough of points to be able
to trigger it.
We can only get loot based on our actions, otherwise it's lottery.
So it's the same for minis, globals, hofs and ATHs. Non of these can be
triggered due to random payout.

So I still see EU as if it has several layers. There are several layers that
must be perfectly combined if we want the best possible loot.
The one who managed to get the ATH, were the first one meet all criteria.

There are thou' possibilities to have a system that mix contest with
randomness, but in those cases, the part with randomness must come
before the part with the contest. If contest comes first, it's seen as
a lottery.

 

[Legion]

Basicly, when it comes to gambling or not, the question is if it's a lottery
(randomness) or a contest.
If someone has the chance to win more then others, it's a lottery.

partially wrong in regards to the swedish lotterylaw. Yes if it's purely random and a person can win more than he deposited then it's a lottery. However if there is a measure of skill involved it's not considered a lottery. As i said before, what we need to do is to determine is what is this skill in eu.

 

[Witte]

Basicly, when it comes to gambling or not, the question is if it's a lottery
(randomness) or a contest.
If someone has the chance to win more then others, it's a lottery.

So EU must have a system where the payout is controlled, based on our
previous actions against the system.
If we join a event, the winner must win due to he/she were most effective
and gathered most points to become a winner.

So what's the difference between a event and ordinary loot? Non imo.
All loot will come due to predetermened settings, when it comes to the
actual TT-value. Whats in the loot, can have some randomness thou'.
The one who get it must be the one who has enough of points to be able
to trigger it.
We can only get loot based on our actions, otherwise it's lottery.
So it's the same for minis, globals, hofs and ATHs. Non of these can be
triggered due to random payout.

So I still see EU as if it has several layers. There are several layers that
must be perfectly combined if we want the best possible loot.
The one who managed to get the ATH, were the first one meet all criteria.

There are thou' possibilities to have a system that mix contest with
randomness, but in those cases, the part with randomness must come
before the part with the contest. If contest comes first, it's seen as
a lottery.

I am pretty sure you read the reply of the Lotteriinspektionen so I don't really understand why you keep holding on to these kind of theories.

 

[Joat]

I am pretty sure you read the reply of the Lotteriinspektionen so I don't really understand why you keep holding on to these kind of theories.

partially wrong in regards to the swedish lotterylaw. Yes if it's purely random and a person can win more than he deposited then it's a lottery. However if there is a measure of skill involved it's not considered a lottery. As i said before, what we need to do is to determine is what is this skill in eu.

Not due to this site. And yes I saw answer from LI, but since questions
were quite scewed, I don't take those answer to be as final answer.
http://www.lotteriinsp.se/sv/Hogerpuffar-till-startsidan/Natverksspel-for-allmanheten/
I guess it's a question about how we see the system, but in the way I see it,
and combined with info from LIs site, where is my theory wrong?

 

[Legion]

Not due to this site. And yes I saw answer from LI, but since questions
were quite scewed, I don't take those answer to be as final answer.
http://www.lotteriinsp.se/sv/Hogerpuffar-till-startsidan/Natverksspel-for-allmanheten/
I guess it's a question about how we see the system, but in the way I see it,
and combined with info from LIs site, where is my theory wrong?

well the law itself states what i said above. But there probably is some feedback loop in there somewhere though. Almost every game has one, with an rce or without.

 

[Witte]

Not due to this site. And yes I saw answer from LI, but since questions
were quite scewed, I don't take those answer to be as final answer.
http://www.lotteriinsp.se/sv/Hogerpuffar-till-startsidan/Natverksspel-for-allmanheten/
I guess it's a question about how we see the system, but in the way I see it,
and combined with info from LIs site, where is my theory wrong?

So you think that if option 1 was stated as you proposed that the answer would be option 1? How can restating one option make the other untrue all in a sudden ?

 

[JohnCapital]

Or, instead of trying to get the Inspection Committee to second guess their rulings by bugging them about this, we could simply play the game and enjoy it.

 

[Joat]

well the law itself states what i said above. But there probably is some feedback loop in there somewhere though. Almost every game has one, with an rce or without.

The law determine the rules around the lotterypart, while looking at a
business or event, is based on the lottery vs. contestpart.

As you said in the previous answer, the interesting part is what is skills
and knowledge. But it isn't just a question about to learn how its works,
it's about to really understand it too. That can be quite tricky.

So, is it about knowing what equipment works best with what target?
Is it about knowing when to do what, and/or also where?

If the answer is yes to the above, then there must be a system that
controlls this. The thing is, if loot has a difference between two different
actions, then there is a system controlling this. If action 1 never can
result in same loot as action 2, then there is obviously a mechanism
that controll our actions done. Same if action 1:a has a difference to
action 1:b.
If action 1:b doesn't payout directly, but after repetetive actions, and in
the long run, the average is quite similar, then there has to be a system
that keep track of what we do.
Question is, for how long? Forever? Per session? I doubt there is a DB that
saves all info, just some importent parts.
Do people really belive all this is controlled by a single layer?
I don't at least.

To Legion: The law states that if one, or several participants, can win
more than others, with or without a stake, it's seen as lottery.
(3 § Med lotteri avses i denna lag en verksamhet där en eller flera
deltagare, med eller utan insats, kan få en vinst till ett högre
värde än vad var och en av de övriga deltagarna kan få.)

So you think that if option 1 was stated as you proposed that the answer would be option 1? How can restating one option make the other untrue all in a sudden ?

If the question had been as I proposed, it might have been included
in their p.o.v, so all three could be "right".
You made a question that had parts that didn't fit EUs lootsystem only,
but EU in general, therefor your nr1 were excluded.
Not easy to do questions like that thou', so it fits most of EU. I guess my
version also can be scew and exclude some importent part.

Maybe I can visit them one day, and have a chat with someone who
has insight and knowledge of the subject.
Their office isn't far away from where I live.

 

[Witte]

If the question had been as I proposed, it might have been included
in their p.o.v, so all three could be "right".
You made a question that had parts that didn't fit EUs lootsystem only,
but EU in general, therefor your nr1 were excluded.
Not easy to do questions like that thou', so it fits most of EU. I guess my
version also can be scew and exclude some importent part.

Maybe I can visit them one day, and have a chat with someone who
has insight and knowledge of the subject.
Their office isn't far away from where I live.

You made the description more specific, but it still falls within the scope of my original description. Yours is not opposite to mine. Anyway, I also asked that if there were any other reasons that they include them in their answer. It can't really get much better, if an answer like this will not convince you, probably nothing will.

 

[aridash]

partially wrong in regards to the swedish lotterylaw. Yes if it's purely random and a person can win more than he deposited then it's a lottery. However if there is a measure of skill involved it's not considered a lottery. As i said before, what we need to do is to determine is what is this skill in eu.

but we do know what skill this is, you have a reply from the lottery commission yourself where its clear the interactive nature of the world is sufficient for them to pass it as a skilled game. Wittes reply above is consistant with that too. in short, for any definition and comparison of gambling you care to apply, EU might match it and they dont care as overall it falls outside their own very narrow definition.

 

[Legion]

The law determine the rules around the lotterypart, while looking at a
business or event, is based on the lottery vs. contestpart.

As you said in the previous answer, the interesting part is what is skills
and knowledge. But it isn't just a question about to learn how its works,
it's about to really understand it too. That can be quite tricky.

So, is it about knowing what equipment works best with what target?
Is it about knowing when to do what, and/or also where?

If the answer is yes to the above, then there must be a system that
controlls this. The thing is, if loot has a difference between two different
actions, then there is a system controlling this. If action 1 never can
result in same loot as action 2, then there is obviously a mechanism
that controll our actions done. Same if action 1:a has a difference to
action 1:b.
If action 1:b doesn't payout directly, but after repetetive actions, and in
the long run, the average is quite similar, then there has to be a system
that keep track of what we do.
Question is, for how long? Forever? Per session? I doubt there is a DB that
saves all info, just some importent parts.
Do people really belive all this is controlled by a single layer?
I don't at least.

To Legion: The law states that if one, or several participants, can win
more than others, with or without a stake, it's seen as lottery.
(3 § Med lotteri avses i denna lag en verksamhet där en eller flera
deltagare, med eller utan insats, kan få en vinst till ett högre
värde än vad var och en av de övriga deltagarna kan få.)

I doubt there is a difference on different actions sort of, ie u get a different result if you spin around and do a backflip than if you do a backflip first. That would just be to much to care about if you ask me. The only feedback system i belive there is is that it does check how much you lost over x time and if you loost to much it gives some back.

I belive that all loot is in parts predetermined and you get directions to where it is, final loot however depends on the looter, for example exactly what item you get etc, but the value is more or less already set. We then get directions to where that loot is and this is the skillpart.

And yes that is part of the law yes. But there is more to it. So if there was no type of skill involved it would definately be a lottery.

 

[Legion]

but we do know what skill this is, you have a reply from the lottery commission yourself where its clear the interactive nature of the world is sufficient for them to pass it as a skilled game. Wittes reply above is consistant with that too. in short, for any definition and comparison of gambling you care to apply, EU might match it and they dont care as overall it falls outside their own very narrow definition.

I dont really agree there, the replies we gotten can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. They never explicitly state what they mean.

 

[Witte]

I dont really agree there, the replies we gotten can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. They never explicitly state what they mean.

People often interpret things the way they want, no matter how it is stated. This is a good example of that. You simply say "but they don't mean what they write, they mean something else". This way you can hold on to whatever position you want.

 

[Joat]

You made the description more specific, but it still falls within the scope of my original description. Yours is not opposite to mine. Anyway, I also asked that if there were any other reasons that they include them in their answer. It can't really get much better, if an answer like this will not convince you, probably nothing will.

I think it's just a question about p.o.v. We are probably quite close in general.
But, it can't be based on randomness. Pure and simple. You included random
in a way so they couldn't agree to that statement.
I included random so they could agree. Small diffrence in words, but a
big diffrence in meaning. That's also why I don't like your nr1.
But as I also mentioned, my version is far from perfect too.

A example to our difference (and numbers are also used as example):

Player233012 spend 200PED and are ensured to get 80% back, so he get
160PED back.

Player 144029 spend 200PED, he gets 55% back due to his setup against
target223, while Player233012 gets 80% due to he use a more efficient
setup, based on skills and knowledge of the system.

Both can have a variation of items in loot thou'.

The thing is, a system can have randomness in some parts, but when
there are randomness included, the final action must be based on contest.
Contest first, randomness after, and it's seen as lottery.
Randomness that gives a payout that isn't equal to every participant, and
it's seen as lottery.
This doesn't mean that the payout to all participants has to be same
amount of ped or items, it's the process from action to loot that has to be
exactly the same for all.
As a user, we can increase efficiency due to skills and knowledge.
EDIT: Or I should probably say, we can decrease our inefficiency
due to skills and knowledge.

I doubt there is a difference on different actions sort of, ie u get a different result if you spin around and do a backflip than if you do a backflip first. That would just be to much to care about if you ask me. The only feedback system i belive there is is that it does check how much you lost over x time and if you loost to much it gives some back.

I belive that all loot is in parts predetermined and you get directions to where it is, final loot however depends on the looter, for example exactly what item you get etc, but the value is more or less already set. We then get directions to where that loot is and this is the skillpart.

And yes that is part of the law yes. But there is more to it. So if there was no type of skill involved it would definately be a lottery.

With a action I obviously mean interaction between object 1 (player) and
object2 (mob, or whatever that fits here) and the outcome of it.
So some examples so you can see what I mean with all actions.
Action1 = Hunting Atrox with Laser Rifle
Action2 = Hunting Ambus with Shortblade
Action 1:a = Hunting Atrox with mk5+ Eamp13
Action 1:b = Hunting Atrox with mk4+ amp201
Action 1:b doesn't payout directly = No loots, and I guess most of us
knows what that is. But eventually we get loot.

 

[Legion]

People often interpret things the way they want, no matter how it is stated. This is a good example of that. You simply say "but they don't mean what they write, they mean something else". This way you can hold on to whatever position you want.

well their reply didnt say anything really, atleast not so we can determine what the heck they actually mean.

With a action I obviously mean interaction between object 1 (player) and
object2 (mob, or whatever that fits here) and the outcome of it.
So some examples so you can see what I mean with all actions.
Action1 = Hunting Atrox with Laser Rifle
Action2 = Hunting Ambus with Shortblade
Action 1:a = Hunting Atrox with mk5+ Eamp13
Action 1:b = Hunting Atrox with mk4+ amp201
Action 1:b doesn't payout directly = No loots, and I guess most of us
knows what that is. But eventually we get loot.

ah you meant it that way, well that way i do agree on exists sort of

 

[aridash]

I dont really agree there, the replies we gotten can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. They never explicitly state what they mean.

no, the reply you got was really quite clear (see below). the answer Witte got was ambiguous due to the way he asked the question, but its consistant in the way they clearly think (if they had gon with option 1 it would have been contradictary).

from here

As shown in the view we do not then that it was a lottery. The impression we got when we played was that it took quite a lot of skill to kill monsters and get their "loot".

If it only had to buy arms and ammunition and then go out and kill monsters without either the knowledge or skill, it would have more resembled a lottery. It would then be classified as an advanced online casino games online.

What we could see is the chance to decide what "loot" a monster has, but the fact that a fairly substantial knowledge and skill to kill monsters did then, that we did not consider the game in its entirety to be a lottery.

clearly since any noob can pick up a weapon and kill, the "skill" required is not in context of in game skill points but more generic skill to operate and move the avatar about in the game environment.

when you question this, the responce confirms my interpretation (my emphasis):

It is a combination of both of which account is the overall assessment. In order to kill monsters is not enough just to shoot. First, the monster can kill you and you have to maneuver your guy in different directions while trying to kill the monster. It simply requires both knowledge of how the game works and skill with regard to handling of such weapons.

there really isnt any other way to interpret this issue.

does this really mean theres no gambling? of course not, its just met their definition.

 

[Witte]

I think it's just a question about p.o.v. We are probably quite close in general.
But, it can't be based on randomness. Pure and simple. You included random
in a way so they couldn't agree to that statement.
I included random so they could agree. Small diffrence in words, but a
big diffrence in meaning. That's also why I don't like your nr1.
But as I also mentioned, my version is far from perfect too.

A example to our difference (and numbers are also used as example):

Player233012 spend 200PED and are ensured to get 80% back, so he get
160PED back.

Player 144029 spend 200PED, he gets 55% back due to his setup against
target223, while Player233012 gets 80% due to he use a more efficient
setup, based on skills and knowledge of the system.

Both can have a variation of items in loot thou'.

What do you mean by "include random"? And which of the above situation do you account to which version? .

Randomness that gives a payout that isn't equal to every participant, and it's seen as lottery.

Not when obtaining the payout requires skill and knowledge. If you cannot define what causes the difference in payout, it can as wel be random, and should be treated as such. In a broader sense, random means lack of correlation with anything.

 

[Joat]

What do you mean by "include random"? And which of the above situation do you account to which version? .

You begin with a obvious statement, that the system can't be based on
randomness (it can however have parts that are random), but then finish
off with the "ensures that a certain percentage of what is spent is
payed back".
They have obvisouly seen that we can determine the outcome of our
actions if we know what we do. Bad setup against "wrong" mob will
end up with a terrible result. They see that the payout isn't based on
ensured percentage of what we spent, so therefor they don't agree.

Bad setup may cost 4PED per kill, and same for perfect setup, 4PED
per kill.
The payout of the bad setup is lower than perfect setup, therefor it isn't
a ensured percentage of what we spent.

So the first part:
Player233012 spend 200PED and are ensured to get 80% back, so he get
160PED back.
This one fits your nr1 with "ensures that a certain percentage of what is
spent is payed back."

The second part:
Player 144029 spend 200PED, he gets 55% back due to his setup against
target223, while Player233012 gets 80% due to he use a more efficient
setup, based on skills and knowledge of the system.
This one is from my "and balance payback due to interaction with
system", which means that if we use bad setup we get bad payout, a
perfect setup gives better payout. The payout is balanced to our
setup, but also based our skills and knowledge. There are no garantuess thou'.

Not when obtaining the payout requires skill and knowledge. If you cannot define what causes the difference in payout, it can as wel be random, and should be treated as such. In a broader sense, random means lack of correlation with anything.

Randomness that gives a payout that isn't equal to every participant, and it's seen as lottery.

You probably got bored and fell asleep, since you missed the following text:

This doesn't mean that the payout to all participants has to be same
amount of ped or items, it's the process from action to loot that has to be
exactly the same for all.
As a user, we can increase efficiency due to skills and knowledge.
EDIT: Or I should probably say, we can decrease our inefficiency
due to skills and knowledge.

This means that setup A (good one) can't be better than setup B (bad
one), based on randomness.
The setup A must always be the better one, when compared to another
avatar with exact same values. Less likely there are two avatars with
exact same values, but if there were, it should be same for both.

Hard to explain this in a good way I guess. But I see the system as if
it has several layers.
So some people might only see it as bad or good, I see it more like if
two avatars with exact same setup and hunting same mob, still can
have different outcome, even thou' I see they have same values in certain
layers, but a difference in others.
So the process from action to loot can mean that avatar1 has 3 out of 4
layers that positive, while avatar2 has 2 out of 4 layers that are positive,
therefor avatar1 will have a better payout. (Just as a simple example so
you see how I mean, in basics.)

Understanding in the dynamic and static variation of the layers, will increase our
chance to a better payout, imo.

Argh, guess I have to write a (boring) book to explain it better....

I have some issues with this line thou':
If you cannot define what causes the difference in payout, it can as wel
be random, and should be treated as such.
Way too often people tend to do this way too early. Just because we
don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't there. This is what
"certain parts of our RL community" has used/abused for several thousends
of years.

 

[Witte]

You begin with a obvious statement, that the system can't be based on
randomness (it can however have parts that are random), but then finish
off with the "ensures that a certain percentage of what is spent is
payed back".
They have obvisouly seen that we can determine the outcome of our
actions if we know what we do. Bad setup against "wrong" mob will
end up with a terrible result. They see that the payout isn't based on
ensured percentage of what we spent, so therefor they don't agree.

Bad setup may cost 4PED per kill, and same for perfect setup, 4PED
per kill.
The payout of the bad setup is lower than perfect setup, therefor it isn't
a ensured percentage of what we spent.

So the first part:
Player233012 spend 200PED and are ensured to get 80% back, so he get
160PED back.
This one fits your nr1 with "ensures that a certain percentage of what is
spent is payed back."

The second part:
Player 144029 spend 200PED, he gets 55% back due to his setup against
target223, while Player233012 gets 80% due to he use a more efficient
setup, based on skills and knowledge of the system.
This one is from my "and balance payback due to interaction with
system", which means that if we use bad setup we get bad payout, a
perfect setup gives better payout. The payout is balanced to our
setup, but also based our skills and knowledge. There are no garantuess thou'.



Randomness that gives a payout that isn't equal to every participant, and it's seen as lottery.

You probably got bored and fell asleep, since you missed the following text:

This doesn't mean that the payout to all participants has to be same
amount of ped or items, it's the process from action to loot that has to be
exactly the same for all.
As a user, we can increase efficiency due to skills and knowledge.
EDIT: Or I should probably say, we can decrease our inefficiency
due to skills and knowledge.

This means that setup A (good one) can't be better than setup B (bad
one), based on randomness.
The setup A must always be the better one, when compared to another
avatar with exact same values. Less likely there are two avatars with
exact same values, but if there were, it should be same for both.

Hard to explain this in a good way I guess. But I see the system as if
it has several layers.
So some people might only see it as bad or good, I see it more like if
two avatars with exact same setup and hunting same mob, still can
have different outcome, even thou' I see they have same values in certain
layers, but a difference in others.
So the process from action to loot can mean that avatar1 has 3 out of 4
layers that positive, while avatar2 has 2 out of 4 layers that are positive,
therefor avatar1 will have a better payout. (Just as a simple example so
you see how I mean, in basics.)

Understanding in the dynamic and static variation of the layers, will increase our
chance to a better payout, imo.

Argh, guess I have to write a (boring) book to explain it better....

I have some issues with this line thou':
If you cannot define what causes the difference in payout, it can as wel
be random, and should be treated as such.
Way too often people tend to do this way too early. Just because we
don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't there. This is what
"certain parts of our RL community" has used/abused for several thousends
of years.

An artificial system where after 8 years of extensive usage nobody has ever been able to proof a correlation between payouts and any other factor (except for the obvious HP), should at the least be considered random by the inspection. If it really is or not doesn't matter, it appears to be for the users, and that is where the verdict should be based on.

Anyway, to put the gamble talk aside, I also have my theories about how loot works, and I think it is indeed not totally random. So I do think you can influence your TT return by other means than just using efficient gear. But I do not think there are checks in place that regulate payout on a personal level, so your loot is not based on the balance of your previous results. The only way I can substantiate that is by the fact that some people lose big, while the next person makes profit, doing the same activity with same gear and skills. Of course there is luck, but I know it is also possible to do it over a long period without very exceptional loots. But to describe what exactly makes the difference, I don't know. I guess it is just how people play.

 

[Joat]

An artificial system where after 8 years of extensive usage nobody has ever been able to proof a correlation between payouts and any other factor (except for the obvious HP), should at the least be considered random by the inspection. If it really is or not doesn't matter, it appears to be for the users, and that is where the verdict should be based on.

Anyway, to put the gamble talk aside, I also have my theories about how loot works, and I think it is indeed not totally random. So I do think you can influence your TT return by other means than just using efficient gear. But I do not think there are checks in place that regulate payout on a personal level, so your loot is not based on the balance of your previous results. The only way I can substantiate that is by the fact that some people lose big, while the next person makes profit, doing the same activity with same gear and skills. Of course there is luck, but I know it is also possible to do it over a long period without very exceptional loots. But to describe what exactly makes the difference, I don't know. I guess it is just how people play.

The uncertainty also makes a lot (?) of people happy, since they love to
dig down and investigate stuff.
I used to do a LOT of tests, but last years I've been too bored to do any
bigger ones. I just wait for the "potential" EU has to show up...

Ofc, the system can have way more randomness then what I think it has,
some of this are just my thoughts around the subject. SOme parts are
based on RL info too thou'
But with too much randomness, EU can be in a greyzone, where a good
lawyer can screw some things up, and that pretty much too.
I doubt MA would put themselfs in that situation.

First I thought I should do a seperate thread about how I see some parts
around lootsystem, but quite soon I realized that it would become way
too big. And shorten it down, well, then I probably gonna miss to put in
some essential parts...
The description you had about two similar players but with different outcome,
well, my theory about several layers fits in perfectly there...

So what can we do? Tests. A lot of them, but they still never gonna be
100% since we can't rollback everything and try a new setup with same
mobs at same time. Even thou' it can be quite frustrating due to all
circumstances, isn't this also the great part of EU, it's dynamic and not
100% predictable?

 

[Witte]

But with too much randomness, EU can be in a greyzone, where a good lawyer can screw some things up, and that pretty much too. I doubt MA would put themselfs in that situation.

To be honest, I think a good lawyer has enough on the fact that the system is so obscure that it seems humanly impossible to predict the outcome, despite how the system works or how random it really is . But who knows how how random it really is. I do seem to be able to put the randomness in my favor

 

[Joat]

To be honest, I think a good lawyer has enough on the fact that the system is so obscure that it seems humanly impossible to predict the outcome, despite how the system works or how random it really is . But who knows how how random it really is. I do seem to be able to put the randomness in my favor

Very true. Yeah, describing the system for someone who don't play
now, it can only end up with a conclusion of randomness...

 

[Dinivan]

how could there possibly not be a lootpool? ofcourse there is, we all already knew. whatever its fing called doesnt mean shit.

 

[barbles marbles]

As shown in the view we do not then that it was a lottery. The impression we got when we played was that it took quite a lot of skill to kill monsters and get their "loot".

It takes no more skill to do this, than playing blackjack. Period.

If it only had to buy arms and ammunition and then go out and kill monsters without either the knowledge or skill, it would have more resembled a lottery. It would then be classified as an advanced online casino games online.

What's the difference between buying arms and ammunition, and buying full armor, ammo, weapon, fap, and amp? Just because you CAN (don't have to) buy more parts of armor, all of a sudden the law changes?

There's so much BS, and dumb people floating around, it's not even funny.

 

[kira-red]

Reading all messages here only lead to one conclusion: a real legal study of it has to be made.

I'd have to disagree. such a study is completely unnecessary. on several occasions the swedish gaming commission has made statements as to why EU is not gambling according to their legal definition.

quite frankly, this should be sufficent. after all, this type of analysis and ruling is their mandate.

however...

You end up thinking "ok if I deposit 1000$ i have a chance, a little chance, to hit a global at 50peds..."

I never think this. if I did, I'd be, well, gambling.

you can even start to think now "ok bad time there is 2 20k peds i can forget to Hof today" because of a putative loot pool, wich is totally abnormal.

I never think this, ethier, for the exact same reason.

Personaly, i'm playing for 3 monthes, but 10-14 hours/day, and to be honest, after all that time passed observing, studying, playing and reading hundreds and hundresds of pages on forums I'm still not sure this is not the major scam of 2000-2010, and to proove it, i still not want to bring my brother in the game.

personally, I've been playing for over six years. and, what I've found is that the game is what you make of it. it is a very hard game. this is what I warn people. it's very easy to lose huge, if you are not careful and don't have the correct mindset. and, if you do lose large, you really have no one to blame except for yourself.

I like to think of EU as entertainment with puzzles. I enjoy it very much - even when it frustrates me.

what can I say when someone tells the same about entropia ? "no no mate because in entropia the skills affect your ROI, it is forced so that they are not considered as a lottery game and can be outside the rules of it" ? no because the person will then ask "ok how does it affect it?" and there i say "nobody knows..it's a mistery known by the company"

it's not a mystery. for example, I know I can go out and hunt snablesnots and collect their skins. I know within a slight variance exactly how many skins I can expect. and, I know within a similar variance what this will cost me. I also know that I can hunt snablesnots efficently where, at my currently level, I cannot do the same with say spiders.

I also can tell when the snables are being a little on the stingy side and it's best to stop hunting them for a while and try later. I also know locations where it is more effective to hunt them there than in some other place.

all of these things contribute to my ROI (if you want to call it that).

As i said before, what we need to do is to determine is what is this skill in eu.

it's in your head, legion. one uses their brain to figure out what the best course of action is.

It takes no more skill to do this, than playing blackjack. Period.

I'm afraid that it does. considerably more skill, in fact.

in blackjack, there are a couple of simiple methods to play the game reasonably. if you delve into serious card counting, you can better your odds but the method is memory intensive. it's not hard, but it takes considerable practice.

in EU, there are many things you have to keep monitor. you have to know what the markets are and how to find the materials these markets desire. you have to choose a niche to work within. it can be quite complex depending on what you want to do.

What's the difference between buying arms and ammunition, and buying full armor, ammo, weapon, fap, and amp? Just because you CAN (don't have to) buy more parts of armor, all of a sudden the law changes?

it's a matter of which equipment you choose and how you utilize it. and, this is only one aspect. there is also the choice of location, the style you use, and what you are looking to find.

There's so much BS, and dumb people floating around, it's not even funny.

actually, I've found some very smart people who play this game. quite a few of them do very well.

 

[DarkFire]

Bad setup may cost 4PED per kill, and same for perfect setup, 4PED
per kill.

Uhm Joat, this makes no sense at all.
Are you saying that a 2dmg/pec weapon has same cost to kill a mob as a 4dmg/pec weapon with similar dmg/sec?
Or that a 5dmg/sec weapon has same cost to kill a mob that regen 4HP/sec as a weapon with 20dmg/sec?
It seems obvious to me that the "right" weapon for a given mob is the weapon that kills it for the smallest possible cost... Especially so when all research i've ever done indicates that loot-range/payout is based exclusively on HP of the mob...
Maybe i didn't understood your post?

 

[Joat]

Uhm Joat, this makes no sense at all.
Are you saying that a 2dmg/pec weapon has same cost to kill a mob as a 4dmg/pec weapon with similar dmg/sec?
Or that a 5dmg/sec weapon has same cost to kill a mob that regen 4HP/sec as a weapon with 20dmg/sec?
It seems obvious to me that the "right" weapon for a given mob is the weapon that kills it for the smallest possible cost... Especially so when all research i've ever done indicates that loot-range/payout is based exclusively on HP of the mob...
Maybe i didn't understood your post?

Too bored of EU atm, so I guess my expalin maybe gets too simple:
Use a low-dmg knife and a high dmg rifle and both cost 4ped to kill the mob,
one of them gonna be most efficient. Same cost, but no ensured percentage
in paybck there.

Btw, I don't look at HP anymore, it's more about amount of interactions
between objects (avatars vs mob), because cost is exactly same for
every interaction. Find perfect amount of interactions against a object
and you also gets pretty good outcome... HP is just a value that
makes the amount of interactions with the object dynamic.