FYI: Definitive loot pool answer

[GoNi]

In germany it doesn´t matter if you play with chips or money, as soon you may win money you need a casino licenze for your poker events.

A backdoor in this law exists!

If you can´t win money (exchange your chips directly into money), you don´t need a casino lizence

F.e.: You start a poker event with a car or any other item as prize, it is seen as a promotion event, no more as gambling. No licenze needed.

Imho this backdoor in german law (don´t know if it exists in other country as well) is one reason to remove PED from loot.
What you can win is items, not money

 

[wizzszz]

F.e.: You start a poker event with a car or any other item as prize, it is seen as a promotion event, no more as gambling. No licenze needed.

This is not fully correct, if people pay for taking part it is no promotional event, however, there is a difference between winning cash and winning goods - and ofc, it defends on amount of money you charge for playing...

However, the chips are seen as real money, as long as you can convert them to cash or goods - if you can only use them to prolong your playing ("Weiterspielmarken"), it is not seen as cash.

 

[Joat]

Gambling is judged by the general impression of the gamemechanism,
nothing else.

You could look at it this way:
In a Casino it's "illegal" to count cards. The impression should be that
it is based on randomness.
In EU, it's the oposite. The impression should be that you must count
cards to be efficient. The better you are in counting cards, the more
successful you will be, legaly...
So, the more knowledge you have in the comming actions, the better.

Markup has zero to do with gambling btw, it is thou' a step closer to tax
for income...

 

[aridash]

The question is, does PED count as currency or game chips

both. try and descibe the difference, draw a venn diagram. if you find them to be seperate you havent understood the meaning of "currency". you can use beans or gold in a trade, if both parties are happy. even if a local law explicitly states you must not use tokens for trade, it doesnt mean that cannot be used for trade, just that it is illegal to do so.

 

[Witte]

I received an answer from the Lotteriinspektionen. My question was:

1) It is not gambling, because the system is not random. There is an underlying system that the participant is not aware of, which logs all expenses and payouts, and ensures that a certain percentage of what is spent is payed back.

2) It is not gambling, because you need skills, equipment and knowledge which can influence your results significantly enough.

3) There are many other activities that make Entropia Universe as a whole not gambling.

The answer was clear and short IMO:

Lotteriinspektionen has so far found that Entropia Universe Is a mixture of 2 and 3 below.

So according to the Lotteriinspektionen it was not absence of randomness in loot that made EU pass the inspection. That doesn't prove that there isn't a personal loop pool of course, but as far as I can see there isn't any argument for it anymore.

 

[R4tt3xx]

I received an answer from the Lotteriinspektionen. My question was:

1) It is not gambling, because the system is not random. There is an underlying system that the participant is not aware of, which logs all expenses and payouts, and ensures that a certain percentage of what is spent is payed back.

2) It is not gambling, because you need skills, equipment and knowledge which can influence your results significantly enough.

3) There are many other activities that make Entropia Universe as a whole not gambling.

The answer was clear and short IMO:



So according to the Lotteriinspektionen it was not absence of randomness in loot that made EU pass the inspection. That doesn't prove that there isn't a personal loop pool of course, but as far as I can see there isn't any argument for it anymore.

SO "Planet Calypso" is playing with fire here, and could (again) potentially go bankrupt because their system is not based around a non-random system. Very interesting. I did not say Mindark as they have gone bankrupt I think TWICE before.

 

[Legion]

SO "Planet Calypso" is playing with fire here, and could (again) potentially go bankrupt because their system is not based around a non-random system. Very interesting. I did not say Mindark as they have gone bankrupt I think TWICE before.

nobody said it is random though.

 

[Legion]

I received an answer from the Lotteriinspektionen. My question was:

1) It is not gambling, because the system is not random. There is an underlying system that the participant is not aware of, which logs all expenses and payouts, and ensures that a certain percentage of what is spent is payed back.

2) It is not gambling, because you need skills, equipment and knowledge which can influence your results significantly enough.

3) There are many other activities that make Entropia Universe as a whole not gambling.

The answer was clear and short IMO:



So according to the Lotteriinspektionen it was not absence of randomness in loot that made EU pass the inspection. That doesn't prove that there isn't a personal loop pool of course, but as far as I can see there isn't any argument for it anymore.

as i said before though, yes it can be random but if it is random it needs what you got as an answer, skills and knowledge.

 

[Joat]

I received an answer from the Lotteriinspektionen. My question was:

1) It is not gambling, because the system is not random. There is an underlying system that the participant is not aware of, which logs all expenses and payouts, and ensures that a certain percentage of what is spent is payed back.

2) It is not gambling, because you need skills, equipment and knowledge which can influence your results significantly enough.

3) There are many other activities that make Entropia Universe as a whole not gambling.

The answer was clear and short IMO:



So according to the Lotteriinspektionen it was not absence of randomness in loot that made EU pass the inspection. That doesn't prove that there isn't a personal loop pool of course, but as far as I can see there isn't any argument for it anymore.

Quite interesting.
Even thou' I think nr1 is a bit scewed. Should have been:
It is not gambling, because the system is not random. There is an
underlying system that the participant is not aware of, which logs
expenses and payouts, and balance payback due to interaction with
system.

There has to be a system that keep track of expenses thou'.
This is a part of a answer from a supportcase I had about loot:
...Vad vi däremot kan säga är att vi inte har genomfört några
förändringar i lootfördelningen eller i det allmänna lootsystemet. Detta
betyder att den procentuella återbetalningen idag är densamma som
tidigare...

What we can inform you of, is that we have not done any changes in
lootdistribution or the lootsystem in general. This means that the
percentage in payback is the same today as earlier.
(Feel free to correct my translation if someone wants that. )

Shall see if I can get some more info about the subject.

 

[Legion]

Quite interesting.
Even thou' I think nr1 is a bit scewed. Should have been:
It is not gambling, because the system is not random. There is an
underlying system that the participant is not aware of, which logs
expenses and payouts, and balance payback due to interaction with
system.

There has to be a system that keep track of expenses thou'.
This is a part of a answer from a supportcase I had about loot:
...Vad vi däremot kan säga är att vi inte har genomfört några
förändringar i lootfördelningen eller i det allmänna lootsystemet. Detta
betyder att den procentuella återbetalningen idag är densamma som
tidigare...

What we can inform you of, is that we have not done any changes in
lootdistribution or the lootsystem in general. This means that the
percentage in payback is the same today as earlier.
(Feel free to correct my translation if someone wants that. )

Shall see if I can get some more info about the subject.

that doesnt really say that there IS a system paying you back. But there likely is though in some way. But it could just be so that the system on average is balanced such that ~90% is what you get back. However there are ppl who has NEVER gone close to that.

 

[DarkFire]

as i said before though, yes it can be random but if it is random it needs what you got as an answer, skills and knowledge.

Exactly
Though *not* knowledge of the "secret underlying system" as you've always hinted

 

[Legion]

Exactly
Though *not* knowledge of the "secret underlying system" as you've always hinted

well skills and knowledge could be just that thing. Although no proof from me yet hehe, but at the moment we are talking in the soc about some certain skills that almost every time indicates a good loot almost straight forward

 

[Witte]

well skills and knowledge could be just that thing. Although no proof from me yet hehe, but at the moment we are talking in the soc about some certain skills that almost every time indicates a good loot almost straight forward

So, how is your mining log going

 

[Legion]

So, how is your mining log going

havent had time. to busy with school and stuff sadly.

 

[wizzszz]

I received an answer from the Lotteriinspektionen. My question was:

1) It is not gambling, because the system is not random. There is an underlying system that the participant is not aware of, which logs all expenses and payouts, and ensures that a certain percentage of what is spent is payed back.

2) It is not gambling, because you need skills, equipment and knowledge which can influence your results significantly enough.

3) There are many other activities that make Entropia Universe as a whole not gambling.

The answer was clear and short IMO:



So according to the Lotteriinspektionen it was not absence of randomness in loot that made EU pass the inspection. That doesn't prove that there isn't a personal loop pool of course, but as far as I can see there isn't any argument for it anymore.

What a bullshit answer, are you sure you didn't send it to MA support instead of the official gambling commision?

to 2) - RL skills have maybe an significant influence on the markup you spend/loot, but hardly on the TT value

to 3) - even if you wrap up your casino in 100 chat rooms it will still be gambling, no?

I think Marco maybe has a cousin sitting at the Lotteriinspektionen office that answers email request, that must be the most dodgy answer ever (well, except answers from MA maybe)

 

[mike jones]

Wrong - Marco and other "officials" used that term several times.

Not 100% sure but i even think it was Marco who coined that term.


And in general:
The question is not whether there is a loot-pool or not, but whether it's personal or not.

he said there is no loot pool when asked the question from q&a with marco

 

[Legion]

What a bullshit answer, are you sure you didn't send it to MA support instead of the official gambling commision?

to 2) - RL skills have maybe an significant influence on the markup you spend/loot, but hardly on the TT value

to 3) - even if you wrap up your casino in 100 chat rooms it will still be gambling, no?

I think Marco maybe has a cousin sitting at the Lotteriinspektionen office that answers email request, that must be the most dodgy answer ever (well, except answers from MA maybe)

and the inspection has said that markup value or such has no impact on if it's a lottery or not. And also the law states that the whole picture should be taken into consideration sort of. But if the system was completely random ie no skill etc involved it would definately be considered gambling. What we need to figure out is WHAT type of skill and knowledge they refer too.

 

[DarkFire]

... some certain skills that almost every time indicates a good loot almost straight forward

Not quite good enough.

and the inspection has said that markup value or such has no impact on if it's a lottery or not. And also the law states that the whole picture should be taken into consideration sort of. But if the system was completely random ie no skill etc involved it would definately be considered gambling. What we need to figure out is WHAT type of skill and knowledge they refer too.

It's very simple.
Skills determine your efficiency with tools/blueprints and thus the price you pay each time you roll the dice. Payout is fixed (related to estimated cost of gamble).

 

[PopFuzz]

Loot is connected to the cost to create that loot. When you hunt mobs your loot is not created by how much it costs to shoot your gun, but by the total amount of dmg over multiple shots.

Same holds true for mining yes it takes 50 pecs to shoot your enmater finder but it takes about 4 shots on avg on planet to get your loot and 14 shots on avg in space to get your loot. There for the base cost of enmater mining is 2 peds on planet and 7 peds in space not 50 pecs. There for with a 7 ped cost to loot you can hit up to 35-70K towers unamped in space using enmater finders using the same 5-10K times multipliers that show up in every other profesions for the uber uber loots.

Also I believe that normal ubers show up every 30K or so loots (400-600 times) and uber ubers 1 in 5 of those

so if your enmater mining space at 7 peds per claim if your getting say 80%-90% tt your gonna cycle 210K peds per uber and loosing 21-42K by the time of that uber. Normal uber would be 2800-4200 peds then. Giving you back 10% of your tt loss. Now by the time you cycle through the 5 ubers you have cycled about a million peds if your getting 80-90% TT return you would have lost 100-200K peds tt which is plenty of room to give you 4 2800-4200 ped ubers and one 35-70K ATH. You would then end up with 80-90% tt in normal loot 1-2% in normal uber TT and 3.5-7% on yoru uber uber. Which leaves mindark a few percent to pay their bills.

The vast majority of ATH are paid for by the player, theres still a few occurances that I am not sure about (like Leloos ath copper etc)

And just fyi, costs of a probe (unamped) are 0.50 PED, yet there have been unamped ATHs, so yes, loot may be related to hitpoints, but i doubt that this applies to ATHs throughout all possible scenarios

 

[PopFuzz]

Slot machines have a guaranteed payout, most legit casinos will set this pretty high 98-99% even have 101-102% in the middle of the floor as a promotional thing. That being said the payout is guaranteed to the machine itself and not the player so 100s can pay the machine and one person gets the payout AKA that is gambling when others pay for your winfall.

I believe Mindark loot works sorta like a guranteed payout slot machine, except each player is the only one playing the machine so they get the jackpot. On top of that all players have to use real life skills to determine what they want the machine to payout. In casinos its just money being paid out. In entropia you can get your payout in many types of things all of which have assorted values greater then the base value. Its like playing a slot machine in a arcade that pays out tokens that you trade in for prizes.

In addition your avatar skills effect your payout, more evade you pay less in defense decay which I believe is lost to MA and not paid back etc. Also using unmaxed equipment leads to worse payout etc.

Yeh I know the argument, but I never got a satisfying reply why slot machines are gambling then. You can use the exact same tricks on those, nobody would notice a difference.

 

[wizzszz]

he said there is no loot pool when asked the question from q&a with marco

Quote or it never happened.

and the inspection has said that markup value or such has no impact on if it's a lottery or not.

Congratz on finding out what MY point was under 2)

Now... what was your point?

 

[aridash]

So according to the Lotteriinspektionen it was not absence of randomness in loot that made EU pass the inspection. That doesn't prove that there isn't a personal loop pool of course, but as far as I can see there isn't any argument for it anymore.

why are you still linking loot pools to the question of gambling? they are entirely seperate questions. just as i doesnt prove loot pools, it doesnt disprove them: in fact it say nothing at all about them.

 

[PopFuzz]

Correct me if im wrong, but I believe pachinko parlors in Japan let you trade the pachinko balls in for some kind of token or item that is intrinsically worthless, but then people can then sell this item to shops or trading terminals elsewhere? The Entropia not being a casino may be as simple as them following a system similar to that.

I left markup out deliberately because it only makes thing more complicated . The markup kinda backfires on the personal loot pool idea, as it introduces luck right back in. I think for the lottery inspection it doesn't matter if a winning is in markup or in cold cash. Comparable with winning a car in a lottery. Although EU is a bit of a unique case, so not very sure about it.

Anyway, I think that my point that the issue is not all black and white has come through. We may not agree, but in the end all we have are opinions.

 

[Profit]

Correct me if im wrong, but I believe pachinko parlors in Japan let you trade the pachinko balls in for some kind of token or item that is intrinsically worthless, but then people can then sell this item to shops or trading terminals elsewhere? The Entropia not being a casino may be as simple as them following a system similar to that.

*DING DING DING*

 

["Rill"]

For every big 'WINNER" there are lots of smaller "LOSERS" and that's all I need to know. But that of course implies I am gambling and we all know EU is not a casino. Don't we?

No one goes into a business with a goal of losing. I understand this and therefore I expect to "LOSE" in the long term. If your business formula is not producing you a profit then you change it or you cease to trade. So far I don't see that MA/FPC would make such an investment to lose. They have also thrown our "losses" back into the game to give us V10. Or would you prefer the flat visual appearances of 9.4

There are far too many critics in this game that seem to still be here. If you are one of these can you tell me why you're still here. I know why I'm still here, it's the balance between MY gambling instinct (which MA/FPC use to a point of perfection) and my human need to communicate with others of like mindedness (especially when they're not within arms reach)

 

[Profit]

There are far too many critics in this game that seem to still be here. If you are one of these can you tell me why you're still here.

EF is fun, sometimes stimulating and very cost effective entertainment during slow periods of the day. This is why I'm still here.
If it's EU you're referring to, then, I'm not still "here" though I did log in for about 5mins the other day. I spend my time lately doing things I find enjoyable and less disappointing than losing hundreds of dollars in an opaque casino.
Maybe one day I'll ante up again, but not for any extended period of time, I'm sure.
Anyways, being critical isn't a bad thing, is it?
Just answering, as you did ask.

 

["Rill"]

EF is fun, sometimes stimulating and very cost effective entertainment during slow periods of the day. This is why I'm still here.
If it's EU you're referring to, then, I'm not still "here" though I did log in for about 5mins the other day. I spend my time lately doing things I find enjoyable and less disappointing than losing hundreds of dollars in an opaque casino.
Maybe one day I'll ante up again, but not for any extended period of time, I'm sure.
Anyways, being critical isn't a bad thing, is it?
Just answering, as you did ask.

The exploitation of our gambling instinct is exactly the answer I was looking for. Your name implies your intention and I find that an honest approach. We the players are what creates our OWN virtual casino. I consider this the fun factor of the game and that's why I enjoy it so much. The game itself is not a casino, it's what we determine as our goal that creates the impression it is.

 

[Profit]

My name has nothing to do with EU, it's a name I use in music (Roamn Profit) and have used it since 2000. It was originally created in 1997 as an alternate name for CS I used so as "fans" wouldn't harass me on public servers. My friend had the name "iroaM" which is Maori backwards and Roamn/iroaM was an interesting mixup to us.
It's a play on words (Roamn/Roaming Profit/Prophet). This can be seen by simply googling the name, there's music online by me going back to 2002 though a lot of older (more embarassing) music is on private ftp right now (FTP is also under the name Roamn and has been alive since 1998). Cashmoney is simply added as at the time of creating my account I was actively listening to Cashmoney records releases as they were on the come up (now they deal with the creator of the EU theme song, Kevin Rudolph, coincidentally).
Another coincidence was that this game revolves around profit and loss and so I used my performance "maiden" name as my forum name here.

As they say - assumption is the mother of all fudge ups!

The reason I didn't PM this to you is because many people have used my name to try and attack my intentions, so I thought I'd clear it up.

Oh and my only goal in EU (as with all games/activities/entertainment) was fun for a respectable amount of money. Which I don't feel I was getting from MA.

 

[Sirhc]

Loss = Cost.

Manage your loss and reduce your cost.

We can go round and round about "loot pools" and "gambling" but we will always be lacking enough information to really nail what EU is or isn't.

Everyone has their own thoughts on what EU is to them and that's OK. That's the point and has been for some time IMO.

Over the years my views have changed greatly when it comes to EU. Its mainly based of my own observations and feedback I've tracked over time.

I think no matter what MA has geared EU to keep us continually depositing. I think there a few core groups they cater to. Each group has different needs and wants and as long as they are being met to some extent they will continue to fund this project.

To me EU will always be a very deliberate system one of which can be studied. That data and observations can be used to determine optimum times to play and times to hold back or sign off.

I can't say the same type of things from my time spent in Casinos in the past.
Ahhh well its EU there will always be debates about it.

Posted via Mobile Device

 

[filibert]

Reading all messages here only lead to one conclusion: a real legal study of it has to be made.
It is obvious swedish authorities are not stupid enough to slower a swedish company that is and will generate funds transfers and benefits. So imo refering to swedish lottery rules is a non-sense, hence, they made it to fit exactly what they wanted to fit. Don't wait any swedish legal authority tells you "you're right we're gonna close servers for further study"
But it is true that online cash rooms (pokerrooms, casinos) have exactly known benefits, even if you cannot know the mechanics of a slotmachine. Nor can you ask Pokerstars to let you test their Random Number Generator (RNG) but you can see and know every o,o1$ they make, all is totally in transparency (you can also see some tests done by statistical institutes on the RNG). Same with casinos and bet rooms. You know where they make money, and how much. The mechanics of their gains is perfectly known.
Entropia does not enter that case, as what they win on your activities is totally hidden and voluntary left in opacy. Of course the fact a player is totally blind to what is determining his loot could be balanced by acceptance of a randomness, but hey it is just not the case, and it is the only real info we have (to be considered different than a lottery game, skills have to influence on what you gain or not and blablabla). So the only way a player could appaise when loosing peds "ok it's random le'ts stay calm" does not even exist, only frustration because it sounds like punition or conspiracy. You end up thinking "ok if I deposit 1000$ i have a chance, a little chance, to hit a global at 50peds...sounds like a scam i go on forum to write my rage"
Hence, as long as a real financial study of the activities of this company is not done, by a non-swedish judge of course, MA will be untouchable and laugh about the billions theories ppl have about loot. But think about it, a new and fresh activity, they are living their personal golden age, until on day serious things and hard times come. It allways. First suicide? first millionary? or maybe just another company? Or first legal plaint? Talk about Entropia around you, watch the reactions, just think about it. It is a strange activity they are having, and the fact noone knows where and how they get money (exept on bank transactions fees when depositing of course) just increases defiance of people.
When going in a poker room and loosing 50$, noone will think they were stolen by the room company, they will think they played bad, they had bad luck, they were on the bad spot, maybe one bad beat etc etc...never will they think "hey it's Pokerstars that is stealing my money!" It is exactly the inverse case here, you just don't know how but you feel strongly that MA is getting the money you loose, and never will you thinkk "hey i'm playing bad and compulsively". Nope, you can even start to think now "ok bad time there is 2 20k peds i can forget to Hof today" because of a putative loot pool, wich is totally abnormal. You can even think "ok i'm feeding the others although i'm not making any mistake". Do you really think it is acceptable? When in any mmorps managing the loot is the least you have to do, but also the most, there is absolutely nothing bad at it. Because you have "infinite" gamespam, means that you won't be blocked at sweater camp, you will play and play and redo the money you lost.
Personaly, i'm playing for 3 monthes, but 10-14 hours/day, and to be honest, after all that time passed observing, studying, playing and reading hundreds and hundresds of pages on forums I'm still not sure this is not the major scam of 2000-2010, and to proove it, i still not want to bring my brother in the game. (We are both advanced formation in science so stats and odds are not quite mysterious for us). This says alot when you protect your own family of a game/activity: I don't trust MA, and until i totally trust it's a honest activity, I wont bring anybody to Entropia, that is a shame cause I love this universe alot, and i think it's present/future of Eactivities so i'm gonna stick to it at least 6 monthes more (+ xxx years if I ever manage to get a benefit one day but i seriously doubt of it).

I can defend any poker room or bet room at a diner if someone tells me "hey poker rooms is a scam for retards" --> what can I say when someone tells the same about entropia ? "no no mate because in entropia the skills affect your ROI, it is forced so that they are not considered as a lottery game and can be outside the rules of it" ? no because the person will then ask "ok how does it affect it?" and there i say "nobody knows..it's a mistery known by the company" and the guy smiles...but if I furthermore talk about a loot pool, the guy will just laugh and say "ok dices are cheated from beginning and you are stupid enough to stay in that game?". Indeed, my friends are already thinking that this game is not totally clear, and when they ask me how much I deposited and how much I have/i'm worth, they laugh at me, and they all say "ok if you have lost 700 of the 800$ you puted in with all you've readen on forums and asked etc etc, i will never do it. Hence it looks like a scam. And I don't really find it's nice activity to sweat 500hours just to start playing w/o deposit" that's what they say atm. It's definitely not my job to convince them
All that story to explain my initial point: a legal, financial, conducted by law study has to be done to clarifiy some strange parts of Entropia activities.
Maybe MA should consider this trust relationship between them and their customers and publish some things themselves, would be better even.
I have to say btw that reading comments of dinosaurs never made me feel better,things like "wait 'til you're skilled enough" and "you hunt atroxes you noob" only bring me to think they protect their profits by leting you ignorant, what is not true. truth is they do not know much more than any other, if nothing more.
Worst: when i read "wth it's so obvious there is a loot pool how do you want loot is not managed?" This is called the risk of any activity of this type, and it would mean MA is the first gambling-like company that excapes any risk. Yes, a casino can loose a lot ONE day, that's why they are forced to have special funds and reserves. It's their risk, they cannot avoid it. And casinos only win more with more frequentation. If MA is indeed tuning the loots matching the economy, they are not having any risk and this is not normal. But as their are alone in their sector, who will control them?
Sorry for the length and the english, but i'm broke ig so i have many time to write forums hehe