FYI: Mindark: Not the Enemy, not your friend either.

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dbelinfante

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Magrathea
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Sage
The story in short:
A friend and socmate of mine, Hopkirk, was approached by a player (we will call him X, his name may be found on other forums) who also has been a member of a top 10 soc. This player said he had an Imp Fap in the bank that he wanted to sell. Hopkirk and X agreed to a deal, the negotiations of which took place over a period of time.

Because X has a somewhat checkered past, Hopkirk alerted MA support that he was about to enter a deal with this person. He specifically told them that he would call upon them if the deal went sour.

Now the catch in the deal was that X didn't have the 80K peds that were supposedly required to retrieve the Fap from the bank, so X convinced Hopkirk to give this money as a first installment. This final phase of the scam took place while Hopkirk and X were in an MSN session as well as live on the phone with each other. Hopkirk felt pretty secure having some RL contact data of this person.

So Hopkirk handed over the 80K peds. After which the phone was hung up, the MSN closed and X logged off.
And Hopkirk knew he'd been had. A classic scam. But here's the twist to the story. Hopkirk is no noob. He had the presence of mind to warn MA Support in advance. He thought he had at least this base covered.

And now MA comes back with the default "All trades are final." reply.

Player X has been locked before, for scamming allegations. Hopkirk has been expertly given a false sense of security, but nevertheless had enough wits to try and buy some insurance in the form of MA Support. He's been politely told to p*ss off by them, after the fact.

Now all recriminations towards Hopkirk may be in order and correct - he should have known better, "All trades are final." etc, etc. - but none of it takes anything away from the purposefully criminal behavior by X. He is well-known to MA. And they will not lift a finger to help Hopkirk. They will not lock X.

Hopkirk is now trying several other ways to retrieve what is rightfully his. Mindark are being as unhelpful as they possibly can. They are more fickle than Greek gods. Sometimes they lock everyone even remotely suspected of having touched teinted money or items, and now they have the clearest case ever, and they're not even at the office.

I'm interested in what the community thinks of this.
 
All trades are final unless you are using the TT and TT an uber item.

Who did he talk to at MA and what kind of assurances did he get?
 
From what I understand... Hopkirk previously tried to get some sort of "warranty" before the deal?

What was MA's answer? It's the only missing bit (I might be blind :))
 
well... IMO he can well suit himself...


I mean, cmon... anyone can figure out that:
1) This is a scam
2) It is stupid to do what you described if you dont trust the person




so MA is really correct here...
 
Bad move MA-bad move.

They have details and logs-how easy is it to see that a scam of this magnitude shouldn't be beyond their jurisdiction? The fact that he was in contact with MA before the scam shows something about Hop-he is no noob.

He didn't trust X, and let MA know that-MA should have given him some help with the matter as X is a known scammer.

All trades are final-what utter shit.

Then why did Squall get his amp back? I thought that would be final? It used to be for all normal players. Treat everyone the same MA! If you were able to give Squall his amp back, give Hop his peds back, as it is obvious he has been scammed by this fucker-they should look at the chat logs and KNOW that it was a scam attempt. MA should really grow a pair and deal with the scammer, give Hop his peds back, and thank AND apologise to him, for cornering the scammer.

If nothing happens? Well the drop in confidence in MA will be another hit to the playerbase...Hey, with MA, Im not too surprised anymore.
Frankenberry-NBK Legion
 
MA gets militant about locking only if they are affected. the widespread locking due to credit card scams or that paypoint bs was becasue MA sufferered. exploits that affect MA are stopped quickly. scams and exploits that cost US money (and often make MA money) are very rarely looked at. :(
 
He was had...pure and simple.

"he alerted MA"...what does that mean? Did they say anything back? Alerting MA is not an insurance policy. Did they have guides riding shotgun? Why was the text on MSN...to keep it off of MA logs?

It's just this easy:

1) You put an agreed to number of peds in the trade window.
2) They put the agreed to itemsin their window.
3) check the item to make sure it is correct both there and in the acceptance window.

Done. Easy. You pay for what is there.

I'm sorry for your friend, but good trading is a n00b skill...

..somebody had a good day!

Still..MA can be alerted to the scam and try to head it off(after the fact, as always), but you know how that can go...
 
MA only supporting themselves in a scam is really bad PR.
I don't see any truth in their claim of EU being the "safest virtual universe".
They proved they have the means to track down scam transactions, but only are willing to use it for their own purposes.
 
I would never ever hand over 80k on good faith, let this be a lesson for us all.

"All trades are final" <<--I don't know how MA could make this policy more clear, and don't understand how someone could expect MA to break policy on this matter.

MA should introduce an escrow service through banks, it would make banks much more useful. Not sure how it would be designed exactly but it could be possible to allow escrow to release bank loaned items.
 
So the new policy is the old policy? All trades are final. Not surprising. should of had one of MA's favorites file the suport case for him. All scams within the last VU will be reversed retro actively.

Sounds like MA is scared of the top 10 society list.

I would like to know the name of X if someone would be so kind as to send me a pm. I wouldnt want anyone let alone my friends to get screwed.
 
"All trades are final" <<--I don't know how MA could make this policy more clear, and don't understand how someone could expect MA to break policy on this matter.

Perhaps he can pay 1kped to get his 80k back?
 
holy shitcakes batman... subscribing
 
That sucks :/.

If Hopkirk has chat logs, phone Number, etc then maybe the police is the right way to go. Phone company should have logs of times called etc, Mindark if the police approach them will have their logs, maybe worth a try.
Hope all works out.

PS- for the sake of the community can you post names on the other forum that can't be named?, just so people are aware.
 
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Im missing the answer from MA prior to the deal. I cannot imagine they told him, sure we will watch closely what happends. It's just not MA's task.
Seriously unbelievable you can fall for such a scam. If you don't trust him why the hell are you giving him 8000 bucks? Because you sent a supportcase to MA without answer on it?

I do think MA should investigate such scams (for admin fee?) just to make the game safer and for better PR, but you can't blame MA for it.
If you get scammed on ebay by somebody who sells a new iphone for 50 bucks is it ebay's fault?
 
Perhaps he can pay 1kped to get his 80k back?

I don't agree with how MA changed policy on TT items either.

If they wanted to change policy it should have been, "We're changing policy now due to recent events and from here on out you can pay 1k to get items back from TT, however all TT trades up until this point still remain final per policy at time of transaction."
 
They proved they have the means to track down scam transactions, but only are willing to use it for their own purposes.

Getting implicated in such a thing would be very dangerous to begin with.

Someone quoted Jeff getting his AMP back; I perfectly remember the ocean of complaints in the style of "why him and not me?!?" (even although they offered at the same time, for every participant, a chance to get their TTed items back *confused*)

Now if MA starts to get involved in any of those scam cases?
See how many "why him and not me?!?" threads appear out of no-where, from old and recent scams alike...
 
ouch...

would like to know who X= as well.

put it in rep comment or pm. - ; )
 
Getting implicated in such a thing would be very dangerous to begin with.

Someone quoted Jeff getting his AMP back; I perfectly remember the ocean of complaints in the style of "why him and not me?!?" (even although they offered at the same time, for every participant, a chance to get their TTed items back *confused*)

Now if MA starts to get involved in any of those scam cases?
See how many "why him and not me?!?" threads appear out of no-where, from old and recent scams alike...

Then do the same, ask 500 ped an hour for some employee to investigate.
Might cost you some but otherwise it would cost us (MA needs to pay employee, we pay MA). If you have lost 80k you'd gladly pay 1k ped.
 
Now if MA starts to get involved in any of those scam cases?
See how many "why him and not me?!?" threads appear out of no-where, from old and recent scams alike...

True!
But MA made a change in policy for an uber item.. will be interesting to see how and if MA responds to this issue!!
 
That sucks :/.

If Hopkirk has chat logs, phone Number, etc then maybe the police is the right way to go. Phone company should have logs of times called etc, Mindark if the police approach them will have their logs, maybe worth a try.
Hope all works out.

PS- for the sake of the community can you post names on the other forum that can't be named?, just so people are aware.

Ditto ... It's just TOO sad to see ppl losing that much money because of MA's incapability to get involved immediately :(

I think 8k $ is a big amount of money to let MA clear this out . It's not their money ... or maybe they will become after locking the X's account? :rolleyes:
 
Someone quoted Jeff getting his AMP back; I perfectly remember the ocean of complaints in the style of "why him and not me?!?" (even although they offered at the same time, for every participant, a chance to get their TTed items back *confused*)

What really steamed alot of people about that was the fact that you had to have already submitted a support case, so anyone educated in policy who knew that a support case was hopeless just accepted their loss and moved on, then they change policy.

So anyone who accepted policy at the time got screwed, whereas anyone who sent a ticket trying to get MA to break policy got rewarded.

That's why I do not agree with how MA handled the TT situation.

Should have been changed in a manor where ALL previous trades remained final and new policy was active from date of change on forward.
 
if you live in the US a lawyer would probably be interested in this due to a item being returned from MA

Hopkins has no legal case against MA (EULA protects them), only a case against the scammer.
 
Then do the same, ask 500 ped an hour for some employee to investigate.
Might cost you some but otherwise it would cost us (MA needs to pay employee, we pay MA). If you have lost 80k you'd gladly pay 1k ped.

But you ommit the fact that you're not dealing with a MA computer but with another living person.

The transaction receipt does not consider any previous agreement between the parties what-so-ever
Plus, the money could already have gone through the laundry: avatar bought 80K worth of stuff through auction; avatar dumped 80K on OA-101; I could go on for hours...

Since at the very moment the scammed money is cycled back into the system, It's practically impossible to get a fair cut for everyone.

What if the scammer lost 40k on OA-101s, then today you score a 40K OA-101 ATH using the money he's just gambled and lost; would you be happy if tomorrow MA sent you this support case:

"Hi,

We are very sorry to inform you that we are withdrawing 40K PEDs from your PED Card, since you have scored a HOF funded by fraudulous money.

Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support Department"

Guess not.
That's the whole point
 
Man if you knew this guy was dodgy enough to send a support case before trading with him/her why on earth even go through with the deal?

Its a tough lesson and I hope all works out but you have been a fool to yourself! :(

Gl with it all
 
All trades are final if your a scammer..

Getting implicated in such a thing would be very dangerous to begin with.

Someone quoted Jeff getting his AMP back; I perfectly remember the ocean of complaints in the style of "why him and not me?!?" (even although they offered at the same time, for every participant, a chance to get their TTed items back *confused*)

Now if MA starts to get involved in any of those scam cases?
See how many "why him and not me?!?" threads appear out of no-where, from old and recent scams alike...

Why him not me - well - I was scammed for 60,000 - I would support anyone who has been scammed by professional scammers... they should not be allowed to play here.........

A scam is not really very difficult to put right by MA - they just fix it - they can stop withdrawals - they can halt an account - track it all - and so they should - if they wanna convince people to add money to the game - because if they don't - your throwing money into a system that no insurance & that puts anyone with money off - eBay has insurance - pay pal has insurance ---

All deals are not final - if one person is deliberately deceiving another to simple scam and profit - there is a difference between a Normal trade and a trade that is meant to scam another person.

So stick your all trades are final up your arse - as that just what the scammer wants to hear- laughs in our faces........

I wonder is the person was a member of the soc that the member was in, that, I was scammed off by 60,000......... Guess what they all said - all deals are final - Bunch of low down twats...

MoonFish
 
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they should not be allowed to play here.........
I can only agree; and I could also say murderers and pedophiles should not be allowed to live... but It ain't that simple
 
Why him not me - well - I was scammed for 60,000 - I would support anyone who has been scammed by professional scammers... they should not be allowed to play here.........

A scam is not really very difficult to put right by MA - they just fix it - they can stop withdrawals - they can halt an account - track it all - and so they should - if they wanna convince people to add money to the game - because if they don't - your throwing money into a system that no insurance & that puts anyone with money off - eBay has insurance - pay pal has insurance ---

All deals are not final - if one person is deliberately deceiving another to simple scam and profit - there is a difference between a Normal trade and a trade that is meant to scam another person.

So stick your all trades are final up your arse - as that just what the scammer wants to hear- laughs in our faces........

I wonder is the person was a member of the soc that i was scammed of by 60,000......... Guess what they all said - all deals are final - Bunch of low down twats...

MoonFish

Tbh, I just having an ongoing court case involved ebay and paypal insurances... forget them, they give even more shit on you than MA.
 
Very sad that this happened for sure. Problem is from MA's eyes a trade is a trade. Could be that 80k was a deal for a service agreed on a forum or elsewhere for instance.

Ultimately, unless you trust them, don't give anyone PED unless you're receiving what you want in return in the trade window.

Telling MA in advance doesn't really change it. By their own rules they can't really do much. Its a P2P trade and all trades are final.

Still, if it is indeed the case that this guy has trust scammed before, you'd like to think MA has some power to investigate and at least lock them. It may not be their duty, but still, do they really want these people around?

Then why did Squall get his amp back? I thought that would be final?

That's somewhat different as it was a P2MA trade not a P2P trade.

MA decided to change the rules as a result of that, and imo changed them for the better so I don't think that's an issue to complain about.
 
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