*** WoF England 2008 ***

[dj.]

If MindArk won't support me in this small request as a WoF winning captain I don't see why I should continue to support the WoF in the future.

OK I'm really pissed off about this now coz I've only just read Hurri's pm but that's the way I'm feeling right now.

Really?

I am pissed off you choose to write here in public, how pissed off you are!

We won the damn WoF, we all had a great time, we all had fun celebrating it, it was all good!!

...and now you start bitching about ma, and 2 bloody jackets.. Losing sight a bit arent we?

I'm sorry Kev, it just makes me cross, just because YOU are pissed off, dont drag us all down!!

You already wrote this in the private forum, but that wasnt good enough no??

You felt like screaming from the roof-tops!!

BAH!!!

 

[Jimmy B]

I think Kev just wants to make sure no-one in the team ends up disappointed from not getting a jacket dj.

But I can also understand it from MA's point of view that maybe they don't want to change an arrangement that had been formally made some time ago.

At the end of the day we won WoF. That's what we set out to do, and we all had a great time doing it. No-one was in it just for the jacket. Its not worth getting upset over Kev.

 

[Oracle]

Really?

I am pissed off you choose to write here in public, how pissed off you are!

We won the damn WoF, we all had a great time, we all had fun celebrating it, it was all good!!

...and now you start bitching about ma, and 2 bloody jackets.. Losing sight a bit arent we?

I'm sorry Kev, it just makes me cross, just because YOU are pissed off, dont drag us all down!!

You already wrote this in the private forum, but that wasnt good enough no??

You felt like screaming from the roof-tops!!

BAH!!!

I'm not bitching Debbie, I see it as my job to continue fighting for those two extra jackets for my men.

It would be easy for me to just walk away and give in.

But I choose instead to remind Hurrikane and MindArk how annoyed I am about this and that they cannot simply ignore my perfectly reasonable request, imho, without consequences.

From my point of view I would appreciate public support from my squad rather than criticism.

And MindArk can be thankful that it is Hurrikane who is WoF organiser and me England captain rather than the other way around because if Hurri had asked me to support him in this issue I would have pulled the WoF next year.

 

[dj.]

Look, it just seems rude to me.

MA dont have to give us diddly-squat, so when they decide to, what we then dont do, is scream for more.

Do you understand what I mean? I hope so, because I'm not knocking you Kev, we are friends, but even friends get annoyed with each other

Also, 2 extra still wouldnt be enough in my book, I would need a extra 50 to say thanx to the amount of support we had

But I do think you are getting too heated over this jacket topic, seriously, it is just a game, we all worked damn hard to win a particular aspect of the game, and we did!!

Thanx to ma for taking the time to design our jackets (hurry up, i want mine lol)

We make a great team, lets enjoy what we achieved

 

[Oracle]

Look, it just seems rude to me.

MA dont have to give us diddly-squat, so when they decide to, what we then dont do, is scream for more.

Do you understand what I mean? I hope so, because I'm not knocking you Kev, we are friends, but even friends get annoyed with each other

Also, 2 extra still wouldnt be enough in my book, I would need a extra 50 to say thanx to the amount of support we had

But I do think you are getting too heated over this jacket topic, seriously, it is just a game, we all worked damn hard to win a particular aspect of the game, and we did!!

Thanx to ma for taking the time to design our jackets (hurry up, i want mine lol)

We make a great team, lets enjoy what we achieved

Yes I know it's not personal Debbie, but can't you see how your post is diluting my campaign to try for the extra jackets?

If Marco or Frank had seen everyone from England and ideally Hurrikane also on my side over this then we might have had a chance of getting a jacket for Mandy and Slappy.

Basically I could just be passive and accept what MindArk say, like everyone usually has to.

But with this being Hurrikane's baby and the England squad being such a big part of the WoF this year I'm very disappointed in their reaction.

I could have posted this in the general WoF thread but I've kept it in the England thread, hopefully though Marco or Frank will drop by and comment.

 

[dj.]

Yes I know it's not personal Debbie, but can't you see how your post is diluting my campaign to try for the extra jackets?

If Marco or Frank had seen everyone from England and ideally Hurrikane also on my side over this then we might have had a chance of getting a jacket for Mandy and Slappy.

Basically I could just be passive and accept what MindArk say, like everyone usually has to.

But with this being Hurrikane's baby and the England squad being such a big part of the WoF this year I'm very disappointed in their reaction.

I could have posted this in the general WoF thread but I've kept it in the England thread, hopefully though Marco or Frank will drop by and comment.

I guess I am taking a rather passive attitude, but I know why;

You use threats ie, not supporting WoF next year, not wanting to be Captain, If you switched places with Hurri you would pull WoF

You think I am not supporting you?

Wrong

What I was attempting to do, was keep you as Captain, keep you supporting WoF (in my usuall bull in a china-shop way lol)

Fight for more jackets by all means, I dont want to see anyone dissapointed either!

I just dont like you threatening to throw in the towel if you dont get your own way.. thats all!!

 

[Avery]

To me this is just as ridiculous as requesting a free GoldCard cos it was damaged in a fire, and threatening to quit PE when requested to send in the burnt one.

The Rules and Prizes were known.

MindArk: As always, they have shown interest in the WoF, and like last year, are prepared to award WoF Winners Jackets (in a different colour than last year) to the 12 members of the Winning Main Team. Hopefully I’ll get these to the winners a little more efficiently than I gave out the last ones. Also, MindArk events such as the postponed Land Grab have been arranged specially to not coincide with the WoF.

Accept it and move on.

Grats to the rest of the England Team

 

[Oracle]

To me this is just as ridiculous as requesting a free GoldCard cos it was damaged in a fire, and threatening to quit PE when requested to send in the burnt one.

The Rules and Prizes were known.



Accept it and move on.

Grats to the rest of the England Team

I'm not threatening to quite EU Avery and it just goes to show how easily MindArk can pacify everyone in here to accepting whatever rules they deem to be fair and proper.

This issue is important to me on principle, as well as one I had to face on practical terms substituting Main 12 players knowing that they might lose of the prizes awarded by MindArk...it adds an extra dilemma to the decision to substitute someone.

If you've not experienced being in this position yourself then you won't be able to see things from my perspective.

What also bugs me about this issue is that nobody from MindArk has spoken to me about it. I've only got replies from Support that it isn't within their jurisdiction and also second-hand through Hurrikane.

I really don't like being completely ignored in this way, it's just common courtesy in my book to reply to to the parties concerned in this, not just to Hurrikane. If they had have done with reasons for their decision I wouldn't be steamed up about this.

Oh, and Avery, it's nothing to do with you whether I choose to move on or not.

Your Gold Card analogy by the way is ridiculous and not an appropriate comparison.

 

[Avery]

If you've not experienced being in this position yourself then you won't be able to see things from my perspective.

As Vice-Captain of Team Tibet I was indeed placed in the same position as you once we made it to the Semi-Finals. There was the possibility we could have won, and we had to take into account the fact that only 12 Jackets would be awarded to the winners when we thought about making substitutions.

 

[Oracle]

As Vice-Captain of Team Tibet I was indeed placed in the same position as you once we made it to the Semi-Finals. There was the possibility we could have won, and we had to take into account the fact that only 12 Jackets would be awarded to the winners when we thought about making substitutions.

OK mate fair enough.

Your motto is 'accept it and move on' and mine is 'fight for what you believe in'.

I'll accept your views on this but please respect mine.

 

[Jimmy B]

and it just goes to show how easily MindArk can pacify everyone in here to accepting whatever rules they deem to be fair and proper.

To be fair they didn't have to give out any prizes for this at all. I think they're within their rights to say that it was arranged beforehand that the winning team would get 12 jackets and that they can't make changes to that.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if we could get extra jackets for Razor and Slappy, they both contributed a lot to the team for sure. And for sure I think there's no harm at all in pushing for those extra jackets. But don't let it upset you if it fails mate, WoF was more than just the jackets, not worth souring a great experience over this.

 

[Oracle]

To be fair they didn't have to give out any prizes for this at all. I think they're within their rights to say that it was arranged beforehand that the winning team would get 12 jackets and that they can't make changes to that.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if we could get extra jackets for Razor and Slappy, they both contributed a lot to the team for sure. And for sure I think there's no harm at all in pushing for those extra jackets. But don't let it upset you if it fails mate, WoF was more than just the jackets, not worth souring a great experience over this.

LOL I accept and appreciate the good intentions of the England squad but I can't help how I feel about this and can't change how I feel just to get everyone back in the celebratory mood.

In fact it was never my intention to rock the boat regarding regarding 'partying on'...I was just exasperrated with MindArk over this, having been at the front-end of correspondences with them.

My views are my personal views only of course and if I'm a lone voice fighting for justice, as I see it, so be it.

 

[kygon]

really tho for 2 bloody jackets , come on MA !!

 

[Oracle]

really tho for 2 bloody jackets , come on MA !!

Exactly!

And thank you for your support mate!

 

[Oleg]

MA never give more than they need to. You were never going to get two extra jackets, not a chance.

It's a shame - the extra jackets would be well-deserved - but it was never going to happen.

 

[Oracle]

MA never give more than they need to.

Why is this?

 

[Frigid]

really tho for 2 bloody jackets , come on MA !!

And I could say "it's 2 bloody jackets, let them go."

The reason for the 12-man main team was so you could field a 4-man hunting team for every match. You have to choose that 12 with great care, with people who will go this distance. If two falter, draw from the other eight. The teams are about winning the WOF...not jackets. The jackets are a nice perk, but not the point of the competitition. I'm sorry the end of a great run has to end with squabbling over jackets, and I'll feel bad if the two people that cycled out feel bad they didn't get jackets, but I am assuming they agreed to be cycled out for the win.

Are you also asking for more upgraded EF memberships, woffee mugs (love that name , or t-shirts?

Sometimes squeaky-wheels get the grease, sometimes they get unwanted scrutiny, so here goes:

This is from the WOF 2008 rules:

Changes to the Main Team: Final date for the Team List is 7 days before the first qualifier (around Feb 1st). After that, if a team member wishes to drop out or cannot participate, they should PM me with their intention to leave, and with the consent to forfeit any reward the Main Team may receive. Without this, another member can’t fill the gap, as only 12 can be in the winning team.

Seems pretty clear they agreed to forfiet any reward vis PM to Hurr in order to be switched out...

...any other agreement would be breach of the rules, in my opinion, and make the substitution VOID and the new players should NOT have been allowed in the main team, no?


Did your team members PM Hurr with their desire to leave the main team and forfiet any rewards as would be required for the substitutions to be allowed or were they cycled in another way? If they were cycled in ANY OTHER WAY , I would say your team was in breach of the rules and would have to foirfiet, especially if the subs hunted on the main team during the final.

So...a paradox. Push for 14 jackets and risk getting none, or accept the rules, accept the twelve jackets, and select your main 12 with more care next year knowing that ONLY the main 12 will get any kind of reward.

Sorry. Rules-whoring is a double-edged sword and I don't play favorites.

You had a such a great run, don't soil it by scraping the barrel...

 

[Dusk]

MA never give more than they need to. You were never going to get two extra jackets, not a chance.

It's a shame - the extra jackets would be well-deserved - but it was never going to happen.

Substitute "never" for "unlikely" in relation to the jackets and that would be my thoughts on the matter.

It was worth asking them the question given the substitution of players, but ultimately MA said no. I suppose they don't want to set a precident that could be abused in futute.

 

[Oleg]

Why is this?

Because they're terrified of making the same mistakes they made years ago by over-supplying the market with certain items.

It's the same reason why, when new items appear, they introduce them very gradually, even if they later become common. Inferior Cloth Extractors are a good recent example - 10 a penny now, but in the first days of the VU when they were introduced, they were tough to find.

Also why for the last couple of years high-end and medium armour drops
have been very thin on the ground.

It betrays a lack of confidence in the economy they have created, in my opinion, and I think they are unnecessarily cautious about it, but that's how they are.

 

[Frigid]

From my point of view I would appreciate public support from my squad rather than criticism.

And MindArk can be thankful that it is Hurrikane who is WoF organiser and me England captain rather than the other way around because if Hurri had asked me to support him in this issue I would have pulled the WoF next year.

DJ is coming down on the side of what is right *and* giving you a bit of tough-love to snap you out of your funk.

WE realize you are upset by this, but you are only bringing the whole thing down a bit.

I, too, am glad Hurr is the WOF organizer and not you. WOF is the best event in PE in my opinion and many others, and to insinuate you would trash the whole thing (not like soembody else couldn't pick-up the flagand keep WOF going) over two f***ing jackets...

...I'll stop...now I'm getting upset and writing while you are upset doesn't do anyone any good...

Be well, Kev, you achieved a lot and should be proud of your win. The WIN is what matters, not the jackets...

 

[Oracle]

Are you also asking for more upgraded EF memberships, woffee mugs (love that name , or t-shirts?

No, but why not?

This is from the WOF 2008 rules:

Seems pretty clear they agreed to forfiet any reward vis PM to Hurr in order to be switched out...

I wasn't aware that there was this 'get out' clause that seems counter to common sense practice on resolving this issue.

...any other agreement would be breach of the rules, in my opinion, and make the substitution VOID and the new players should NOT have been allowed in the main team, no?

Did your team members PM Hurr with their desire to leave the main team and forfiet any rewards as would be required for the substitutions to be allowed or were they cycled in another way? If they were cycled in ANY OTHER WAY , I would say your team was in breach of the rules and would have to foirfiet, especially if the subs hunted on the main team during the final.

We followed the rules and I'm sure Hurrikane will back me up regarding this.

The above rule regarding limiting the jackets to Main 12 players only was ill thought out in my opinion and speaking as someone who has had to deal with this issue.

So as far as I'm concerned we need to learn from the situation this year and the rule needs changing.

 

[RazorFire]

As stated previously, the glory of the victory is enough for me lets enjoy the win and not wory about the details.

However, maybe in this case what I would suggest is that in the (hopefully not) situation that for whatever reason some of the 12 has to quit EU sometime in future, then slappy gets given the first jacket, and so on and so forth, down into members of the support team ensuring the jackets are kept amongst those that contributed

 

[Oracle]

OK I won't labour the point any further in here.

I'd like to thank Kygon once more for his unqualified support.

My own view is that an England Captain should receive the full backing of his squad, especially in public threads, and even when you don't agree with him or her.

I would urge everyone to get behind whoever is elected England Captain for WoF 2009 100%.

Differences of view are fine of course but there are times, I feel, when the right thing is to support your Captain no matter what.

 

[Frigid]

Differences of view are fine of course but there are times, I feel, when the right thing is to support your Captain no matter what.

Even the military doesn't go so far as to require the "no matter what"...

 

[Jimmy B]

OK I won't labour the point any further in here.

I'd like to thank Kygon once more for his unqualified support.

My own view is that an England Captain should receive the full backing of his squad, especially in public threads, and even when you don't agree with him or her.

I would urge everyone to get behind whoever is elected England Captain for WoF 2009 100%.

Differences of view are fine of course but there are times, I feel, when the right thing is to support your Captain no matter what.

You do have our support Kev, and our gratitude. You've done a great job from start to finish. But I've got to disagree with you on this one sorry. We should be able to speak our minds. If you make a statement on a public thread that could be construed to be speaking for the team, I think everyone in the team has the right to voice their opinions too.

No-one is being hostile about it, but I think when you make a statement to the meaning of "If I was running WoF I'd have considered packing it in next year as a result of this", I think we have the right to distance ourselves from that viewpoint.

Maybe we should have debated this in the private forum, sure. But then so should you have discussed it in the private forum before posting in the public one.

Anyway, that's my last thoughts on the matter as I don't want this whole thing to spoil the experience we've had, wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings or make you feel like you'd been let down. I have a lot of respect for how you managed the team all through the tournament and I know the others who've spoken up do too. So you do have our support and respect. We don't have to agree with every word you say for that to be the case.

 

[kygon]

I'd like to thank Kygon once more for his unqualified support.

my point was quite simple....

WoF raises a massive amount of peds and makes alot of people deposit ALOT to complete. I'd imagine at least some people continue to play EU to compete.

WoF is bar non the best event EVER in EU and considering the profit for MA I feel that MA should be a little flexible in commemorating the winners.

Its 2 bloody clothing items not 2 extra WoF Edition Foerippers

and Kev is fighting for his team not himself, fuck sake that should be encouraged lol

 

[RazorFire]

You also obviously had my support as i was one of those directly affected. I was hopeful of a positive outcome but it became clear that that isn't going to happen so the only thing to do at this point is accept it, and yes, see if things can be changed for next time

 

[dj.]

I would urge everyone to get behind whoever is elected England Captain for WoF 2009 100%.

Yeah, dont you worry, we will

Perhaps this one wont metamorphosis into a raving mad loony dictator this time hey?

*salutes* (or I may be shot)

What?

Did anyone expect anything else from DJ this time of night?

 

[Jamhot]

I wanna fugging jacket!!!! In fact JimmyB deserves one goddamit!!! He was the bloody stato of our team mob locations organising support!!!! DJ deserves a fuggin jacket too , mashin away at them mobs each round and bringing home the globals , and Oleg!!! What about them unsung heroes!?

Jamhot

If not a jacket, at least a tee shirt! C'mooon even if us lot weren't battling the uber mobs we were plugging away at the crappy ones that don;t global and making sure those all important bonuses came home for scoring on each one and what not! Variety bonuses. we showed up and did our bit same as any other team members.

 

[dj.]

I wanna fugging jacket!!!! In fact JimmyB deserves one goddamit!!! He was the bloody stato of our team mob locations organising support!!!! DJ deserves a fuggin jacket too , mashin away at them mobs each round and bringing home the globals , and Oleg!!! What about them unsung heroes!?

Jamhot

If not a jacket, at least a tee shirt! C'mooon even if us lot weren't battling the uber mobs we were plugging away at the crappy ones that don;t global and making sure those all important bonuses came home for scoring on each one and what not! Variety bonuses. we showed up and did our bit same as any other team members.

Mate, believe me , I have sung your corner, their corner, our corner EVERYONES FUCKING corner in private forum.

I am as passionate as anyone, I worked my ass off for WoF, as did many people.



Anyone want my T-Shirt? (size 10 lol)

Or WoFee mug, its your's!!!