A Request for the Power of This Community!

[Anselme25]

Wow. It seems whiners know no boundaries. Write support cases if you want to complain, but please don't spam this thread with needless declarations of hatred.

 

[KiriMistPrinces]

Everything would probably be much better if MA/FPC served their community on their own forum with obligation to answer legitimate questions properly and in public from the very beginning. We essentially dont have a proper community (for paying customers, at least) as no one is obligated to give articulate answers on 3rd party forum.
Is that the root of rage maybe?

I'm not saying communication is great. I agree it could and should be a lot better.

What I'm saying is that some of the responses JB is receiving in this thread are uncalled for.

He has no control over this VU and the issues we are having.

Over the last few days we have been seeing an increase in updates. It seems like MA|FPC are working on correcting the issues and this is what they said would happen.

 

[Remus]

I'm not saying communication is great. I agree it could and should be a lot better.

What I'm saying is that some of the responses JB is receiving in this thread are uncalled for.

He has no control over this VU and the issues we are having.

Over the last few days we have been seeing an increase in updates. It seems like MA|FPC are working on correcting the issues and this is what they said would happen.

We can agree on that, knowing that he also is a human being.
But what else to expect from a community that is intentionally and for years deprived of informations and proper feedback? Its sad, but JB accepted to be a messenger of those who evaded answering for so long.

 

[Harvest]

I hate crucifying ppl as well, I try and give them the benefit of the doubt. The thing is they want the power of the community on their side but the community is not feeling the power of MA/FPC on theirs. A rather one side take take take take. Gotta put the breaks on that at some point. This really smells of a diversion from the issue of, they dont have our support till they fix some stuff.

We all expected issues and if you didnt...well if your around next time you will lol. We know if these issues aren't pushed, they continue like its ok. People are afraid that these new issues will end up like the old, unfixed. The new players that come after the bugs and bs, dont know better, thats just the way the game works in their mind and never raise an issue. Matter of fact some of them cant understand why ppl are so upset.

They sent someone to talk about something that is low priority to most of the clients. Why didnt they send someone to talk about the high priority issues....diversion. So this is what happens. Every one says...'...ya, thats great , lets talk about something else.'

 

[NeutrinoX]

After reading a bunch of replies in this thread, I get the feeling John will be really needing the gun that shows on his avatar if he wants to get out whole and alive from an encounter with the people here. Sadly, they're not completely unjustified at all. We can't expect to think about the future, if you guys don't focus on the problems in the present. Yeah, it's a nice thingy and all, I signed up and voted, and I understand it's important to you, but I don't really think its priority outweighs the current issues. Besides, I do agree we NEED a lot more of communication, and most urgently, action, if we really want to make this a win-win situation. It would seem like MA|FPC is listening a bit more to their community, and now they need our help... well, we scratch your back, you scratch ours. We can start working on it so it doesn't seems like, as Harvest said, an one side take take take take.

 

[KiriMistPrinces]

I hate crucifying ppl as well, I try and give them the benefit of the doubt. The thing is they want the power of the community on their side but the community is not feeling the power of MA/FPC on theirs. A rather one side take take take take. Gotta put the breaks on that at some point. This really smells of a diversion from the issue of, they dont have our support till they fix some stuff.

We all expected issues and if you didnt...well if your around next time you will lol. We know if these issues aren't pushed, they continue like its ok. People are afraid that these new issues will end up like the old, unfixed. The new players that come after the bugs and bs, dont know better, thats just the way the game works in their mind and never raise an issue. Matter of fact some of them cant understand why ppl are so upset.

They sent someone to talk about something that is low priority to most of the clients. Why didnt they send someone to talk about the high priority issues....diversion. So this is what happens. Every one says...'...ya, thats great , lets talk about something else.'

What's to say that MA sent him to do this? I'm sure as a person who is in marketing he seeks his own venues to promote the product for the company he works for. I'm sure he decided to do this on his own accord, and not with a proposal from MA to come here.

After reading a bunch of replies in this thread, I get the feeling John will be really needing the gun that shows on his avatar if he wants to get out whole and alive from an encounter with the people here. Sadly, they're not completely unjustified at all. We can't expect to think about the future, if you guys don't focus on the problems in the present. Yeah, it's a nice thingy and all, I signed up and voted, and I understand it's important to you, but I don't really think its priority outweighs the current issues. Besides, I do agree we NEED a lot more of communication, and most urgently, action, if we really want to make this a win-win situation. It would seem like MA|FPC is listening a bit more to their community, and now they need our help... well, we scratch your back, you scratch ours. We can start working on it so it doesn't seems like, as Harvest said, an one side take take take take.

While I don't know JB or have ever spoken to him I'm sure he sympathizes with those who can not play or play they want to...he even admitted to not being able to play himself so he, an employee for MA is having issues.

But the fact of the matter is, it's not his job to handle the issues, he is here to sell the product and that's what a person in marketing does, and that is what he's trying to do with this thread.

I feel that when we get someone in the forum from MA|FPC we should be able to express ourselves in a civil manner. We can be frustrated but there's no need to be rude about it to get our point across.

Just my view on the whole situation.

 

[711]

There are dozens of threads with discussion of the CryEngine VU10 implementation and the current stability issues, bugs, etc.

Please keep the discussion in this thread related to the topic at hand: The SXSW discussion panels, and John Bates' efforts to promote Entropia Universe.

Immature and unconstructive comments like "This VU sucks balls!!!11!!!1" have absolutely no place in this thread.

 

[MindStar9]

I will echo Kiri's post and add ... that I agree that we can share our perspectives and frustrations, but do it constructively, and without all the unnecessary rudeness and bashing that is going on in this thread. It's been said more than once that John is not a part of the design or coding team, and therefore, not responsible for the issues that many are experiencing.

John is ... marketing and advertising, and in the course of his responsibilities, he seeks venues that are most conducive to promoting and putting Entropia on the map. There is much forethought, and extensive planning that goes into an undertaking such as what will take place at SXSW. He has proposed some valid topics of interest for discussion that has potential to be quite beneficial for all of us in a ripple effect if you will.

The fact is ... (and as stated in my thread) ... SXSW may not be until March 12th - 16th, 2010, but ... the proposals for consideration on the conference agenda had to be submitted between June 1st and July 10th, and ... SXSW has put into place the voting process on all proposals submitted. There is a short deadline within which the voting takes place, and ends on Sep 4th.

Thing is ... if you don't want to vote and support these topics getting on the program, then you may choose not to, but to come into this thread and attack John the way some have, certainly doesn't promote a good level of interaction as representatives of this community. Your opinions about how things are, or have been approached by the developer should be kept in perspective, and addressed appropriately and constructively.

Yes ... many in the community have continuing issues with this VU, and I totally agree that this should take priority, but ... we are witnessing this taking place, and it might do us more good to ask questions of John in hopes of getting a response, rather than being accusatory and totally rude as some have been toward him. I know him to be a rather open and forthcoming individual (due to working with him on bonus content for the news, as well as other things), and he is most willing to respond to the community when opportunity presents itself, because he genuinely cares.

However ... I don't blame him for taking the position he has in this thread in response to the rudeness. If we want more of a two-way street when it comes to communication, this is surely a poor way of going about it.

Can we ... give the guy some slack and take our frustrations to the source that needs to hear them? No pushing, no shoving ... line up please and take a number.




.

 

[the-unknown]

John, answer me this one, honestly. Do you really want an influx of new players trying out EU for the first time NOW? I saw a noobs in PA last night begging for ped, being told by passers-by to piss off. Now THERE'S a great first impression. And I felt bad for him too because really, what else was there for him to do???

Very good point.

Even the existing noobs are having a hard time.

I normally advice them to get the TPs / explore, followed by offering any services, if at all possible, and followed by depositing if really desperate.

But that does not normally seem to get thru to them.

 

[Xandra]

Hi,

How about you stop planning for tomorrow, and fix the problems we have right now. I mean you guys are working on new content when the POS we are playing right now is in beta if not alpha.

I'm quite sure John isn't actually sitting at a machine fine tuning textures, hunting bugs using the mighty ModDebugger or writing poems in C+ or whatever developing language is used, and without knowing about it's knowledge I guess it's good this way.
John's job is something completely different, and I cannot help but feeling he might be quite well suited for this job.

At least he managed very well to get the roaring masses here calmed, and in an impressing manner, I have to admit. I wished we'd be able to enjoy such communication more often!

Well, the conference is quite some time ahead, and if it's necessary to act now for things that will come in the future - so be it. I'll head over after I've finished this.
I don't know if I'll still be an active participant when the conferences are occurring, but at least I hope there'll be A LOT of Marketing and Advertisement whenever the worst bugs are ironed out - after all I'd have quite some stuff to sell, and the more new participants the better. So whatever road this game takes, and whatever decision I'll make, it's in my very interest that John does a good job, and thus he has all of my support.

I feel better now. I was very upset about VU10.0, and about the decision for CE2 (I had preferred ANY game engine but this one), and about the fact that the implementation of this engine even surpassed my worst nightmares.
But now I see that there's hope for my "investments" to keep it's value, maybe even improve. Might this game take any road, might I be happy with or not, as long as there's a growth in participants numbers possible for the near future I'm happy.
And I trust in John to be able to help achieving this now.

Thanks to John for his replys, and thanks to all that honored my previous post - I'll find a way to put it to good use!

Kind regards, and have fun!



PS: Maybe a little off topic, but I feel obliged to explain why I'm not sure anymore to remain among the active participants further:

1. One thing is the hardware requirements. It's not that I'd not be able to upgrade my machine (I'm running at about "above medium" with constant 30 fps or better, but this still doesn't look this good ...), I'm just not ready to have a roaring, electricity eating, heating gamerz monster sitting below my desk.
   I'm using my machine not only for games, I'm using it to work, too, and it's on usually 16h every day. It's easily capable to run any game I ever tried - every game but EU/CE2. It ran even Crysis in a very playable fashion, before I sold this game again. But for EU/CE2 it's too weak ...
   .
2. I have a problem with the "new look" in EU/CE2. Hard to describe, especially my English skills seem inadequate here - it's this "glossy" appearance, the exaggerated lighting everywhere.
   Entering a service center, or running through a field of grass actually hurts my eyes.
   The latter can be resolved by turning down an option in the preferences, but then I have partially drawn trees and it's looking worse then even the old game engine ...
   And I'm not ready to correct my gamma every few hours. Night and day is all fine, but IMHO there should be a implementation of "night" that wouldn't leave me sitting in front of a completely black screen, forcing me to adjust the game/ hardware settings, or to log out for some time.
   .
3. Last but not least is the way to control the avatar. I accept 1st person view as an option. I accept 1st person view as mandatory in a pure shooter game like Unreal Tournament, where it's done in a suiting manner.
   I know there's an implementation of a kind of "3rd person avatar control" announced - the manner how this will be implemented will have a huge impact on my willingness to swallow #1 and #2.
   EU in it's current state, regarding avatar control, is not accepted by me. Avatar control ever was a weakness in EU, and I'd accept the old style as a minimum - improvement would be one of the hopes I had for the new engine.
   The current click and key stroke fest? Without me.

 

[sledgehammer]

I will echo Kiri's post and add ... that I agree that we can share our perspectives and frustrations, but do it constructively, and without all the unnecessary rudeness and bashing that is going on in this thread. It's been said more than once that John is not a part of the design or coding team, and therefore, not responsible for the issues that many are experiencing.

We never said John is responsible for the code. John is a representative of the company, and he is asking us for something that we feel is completely unreasonable given the current state of things. We are tired, frustrated, and angry. It's not meant at you personally, John. But you're the one talking, you're the one who can call these guys on the phone at night and say "Hey, you're all acting like douchebags, they're pissed. Do something before we lose our customers." I'm sure you'd rather see this than to have us all just quit because we decided no one would listen. We wouldn't be giving you this feedback unless we thought you would be.

[John is ... marketing and advertising, and in the course of his responsibilities, he seeks venues that are most conducive to promoting and putting Entropia on the map. There is much forethought, and extensive planning that goes into an undertaking such as what will take place at SXSW. He has proposed some valid topics of interest for discussion that has potential to be quite beneficial for all of us in a ripple effect if you will.

That's great that John is seeking new venues. We don't care right now. In fact, the more options they have, the less they have to rely on, and therefore listen to us. Let's focus on getting things right for the players that are here before we think about adding another 100,000 new ones. I'm sure his topics are very valid, but a far more valid point, but a magnitude of a million is the fact that the customers that have made this game work, and paid John's salary as well as everyone elses at MA are totally unsatisfied, and if we are drowned out by another 100,000 voices who don't know any better, how will we ever affect change?

[The fact is ... (and as stated in my thread) ... SXSW may not be until March 12th - 16th, 2010, but ... the proposals for consideration on the conference agenda had to be submitted between June 1st and July 10th, and ... SXSW has put into place the voting process on all proposals submitted. There is a short deadline within which the voting takes place, and ends on Sep 4th.

All the better. A deadline. Finally one we know they want to keep. Seems like there is another unspoken deadline for many customers here who are getting to the point of giving up. Seems like a more important deadline to worry about. After all, marketing doesn't end when you get the customer. There's a great old saying that you have to do the same things to keep her as you did to get her.

[Thing is ... if you don't want to vote and support these topics getting on the program, then you may choose not to, but to come into this thread and attack John the way some have, certainly doesn't promote a good level of interaction as representatives of this community. Your opinions about how things are, or have been approached by the developer should be kept in perspective, and addressed appropriately and constructively.

Again, John, nothing personal, and I think you realize that it's nothing personal about you, even if MS9 doesn't. Fact is, you asked for our help. We're telling you what you've got to do to get it. I hate this idiotic, childish idea that you can only voice your opinion in this little box, but not in the other one. Happily, you have not complained about this like a little kid, so I give you credit there. Good man. You understand that as a salesman you've gotta have broad shoulders (I'm a salesman too, I hear much much worse). But the fact is, you want our help, there are some things we want first, and if we're gonna do something, we want to mean it. We just don't mean it right now if we voted for this. We want help first. We've put in the hard yards, and the cash to have earned it. Quid pro quo Clarice.

[Yes ... many in the community have continuing issues with this VU, and I totally agree that this should take priority, but ... we are witnessing this taking place, and it might do us more good to ask questions of John in hopes of getting a response, rather than being accusatory and totally rude as some have been toward him. I know him to be a rather open and forthcoming individual (due to working with him on bonus content for the news, as well as other things), and he is most willing to respond to the community when opportunity presents itself, because he genuinely cares.

We've been asking plenty. Asking gets us nowhere apparently. Time for some telling. Now we have been presented with something where Mindark actually wants to listen to us, so we're telling while we've got the chance. It won't last long. Every time we ask we're told "the issue has been forwarded to this other team that will sit on it, sh*tcan it, wrap it up, regift it to their mother's in laws, and then close the support case". That process has been going on for years, and that is way more rude than anything we've said here, by far, period. So, a bunch of frustrated, tired customers get someone who doesn't say this, guess what, we bring out all the old stuff that is sitting on the floor of the office being used as liners for parrot cages. So we got one, maybe two guys that care at MA. This one is listening. No one else is. He's gonna hear it all. There's nothing unfair about that except between the rest of Mindark and John. They shouldn't have done that to him.

[However ... I don't blame him for taking the position he has in this thread in response to the rudeness. If we want more of a two-way street when it comes to communication, this is surely a poor way of going about it.

Poor or not, it's the only way we've got right now. Nothing else has gotten us diddly squat. Who's fault is that for not providing us with a better venue? Surely you're not suggesting it's ours?

[Can we ... give the guy some slack and take our frustrations to the source that needs to hear them? No pushing, no shoving ... line up please and take a number. .

I give John all the slack in the world. We don't think he's responsible for coding the game, or giving us bad loot. But he's with them. Again, he can call them on the phone at night, and tell them they've got their heads shoved up their asses. He needs to do this. We've taken a number, and taken a number, and taken a number, and the accumulated tickets submitted would burst the servers on this forum. Luckily for Mindark's servers, they are automatically deleted apparently. This outlet has been needed for much longer than just the last two weeks, and John has opened it up. The dam has busted and the flood is coming. Just how it goes. We're not allowed to address MA in an open forum on our own without them first opening one up (I know because 711 actually modified my thread about an issue that is still plaguing miners). We can't get anything done through support cases apparently, because they just don't care in that office. So John, you're the guy. You didn't ask to be, but you are. You want help? Get some for us. Change things. I know you can.

 

[Kemp]

Very good post sledgehammer!!

 

[HardWrath]

After 4 years of playing EU I have my fair share of complaints about MindArk, their strategy, and their priorities, as well as various components of game play. I am even more frustrated by MindArk’s lack of effort in promoting and marketing the Entropia Universe. However this thread isn’t the place for that discussion.

When I see initiatives like what John Bates is doing I get excited and when I see MindArk trying to involve the community in something for a change, a little bit of hope bubbles up inside of me. But when I read some of the comments on this thread I just want to slam my head against my desk and take my lap top and whip it across the room.

Are some of you just retarded? That’s starting to seem like the real problem here.

I am just as frustrated with the current situation of EU but this thread is NOT THE TIME OR PLACE FOR IT…. There are dozens of other threads for that.

MindArk is fully aware of our frustrations and they are doing what they can to get things fixed. It certainly does not help when people shit on every possible positive thing that MindArk’s employees try to do.

Just think if you were an employee at MindArk who has NOTHING TO DO with programming or game development and your job is to PROMOTE THE ENTROPIA UNIVERSE to the rest of the world. Now imagine if every time you made a grand effort to accomplish something positive that you KNEW would be of significant benefit only to have the existing customer base shit on you at every chance they got. How many rounds of getting shit on would it take for you to just give up? Hmmm?

This "vote" isn’t a vote on whether or not we approve of VU10.0, the current situation in EU, loot, the EU economy, or anything that has anything remotely to do with game play. This vote is on whether or not to discuss three topics related to the Entropia Universe at SXSW in 2010. Just the mere discussion of these topics in that event will bring a lot of new eyes and possibly a lot of new MONEY into the Entropia Universe as a whole.

Those of you who passionately “care” about EU so much should show that support by HELPING to do something that has the potential to make the EU better then it is now instead of trying to beat down any kind of positive effort made by MindArk’s employees.

 

[AlphaGeek]

They did that today after a week of inability to log, their patches, moving my avatar to places other than where it was when the initial crash occurred, etc etc etc.


Can't try to log till 2300 UTC

 

[sledgehammer]

I am just as frustrated with the current situation of EU but this thread is NOT THE TIME OR PLACE FOR IT…. There are dozens of other threads for that.

There are NOT dozens of threads in which MA representatives are actively participating, and actually giving thoughtful responses to our questions and problems. John seems to be doing that here, so I give him great credit for that. If there was more of this John wouldn't have gotten an earfull in response to something that would have normally been a reasonable request. Again, nice as that prospect of new players might be, the more important issue at hand is the treatment, and loss of the old ones.

 

[HardWrath]

There are NOT dozens of threads in which MA representatives are actively participating, and actually giving thoughtful responses to our questions and problems. John seems to be doing that here, so I give him great credit for that. If there was more of this John wouldn't have gotten an earfull in response to something that would have normally been a reasonable request. Again, nice as that prospect of new players might be, the more important issue at hand is the treatment, and loss of the old ones.

MindArk representatives are participating in this entire forum. They are actively reading the threads and they even respond from time to time. Furthermore, you can use the PM functions of the EF if there is a particular thread of yours that you want them to comment on or if you want to make sure that they see it.

Hijacking every positive effort made by MindArk so you can push for the things that YOU feel are more important won’t get them to take you more seriously. It will just cause them to care less than they do now.

There was a time when MindArk had a company owned forum and they included the EU participants in the discussion about game development and brainstorming. Guess what happened to that forum... the community wrecked it.

By you hijacking and flaming, you only DISCOURAGE MindArk employees from interacting with the EU community.

 

[Remus]

sledgehammer +REP

Another annoying and very possible outcome is that they hope for that flood of new players who dont know better (as sledgehammer noted) so they can again for Nth time shut all channels of communication and continue with old practice.
So, they need some help in crisis.. when crisis is over we will again be left to wonder and wrestle with enthusiastic newcomers. In a year or two, those newcomers will come to our place.. rinse.. repeat.. all is well....

I strongly believe that it is possible to have a business and healthy community at same time. But there must be some compromises and goodwill on both sides.

I wont comment in this thread anymore unless directly called for.

PS I was a newcomer once, back in 2006. and actually had a post stating something like: "Have faith in MA!"
ahh the memories

 

[sledgehammer]

MindArk representatives are participating in this entire forum. They are actively reading the threads and they even respond from time to time. Furthermore, you can use the PM functions of the EF if there is a particular thread of yours that you want them to comment on or if you want to make sure that they see it.

Hijacking every positive effort made by MindArk so you can push for the things that YOU feel are more important won’t get them to take you more seriously. It will just cause them to care less than they do now.

There was a time when MindArk had a company owned forum and they included the EU participants in the discussion about game development and brainstorming. Guess what happened to that forum... the community wrecked it.

By you hijacking and flaming, you only DISCOURAGE MindArk employees from interacting with the EU community.

Now lets be honest with ourselves, Hardwrath. There is a difference between posting a monologue, and discussion. Additionally, we are still on topic with the op. It just hasn't gone in the direction John expected. We've let him know that there are some things we need first. It kinda goes back to the difference between a tour and a journey.

Furthermore, I don't see the logic behind not wanting to deal with your customers. I know MA hates to think of us that way, but that's what we are. So the idea that instead of increasing communication and opening dialogue when customers are upset, MA shuts off communication, is the most asanine bussiness model I've ever heard of. I'm sorry you disagree, but MA staff are NOT ingame buddies we want to hang out with. They form a company with which we do business, and to which we pay money. So they need to be concerned with alienating us far more than we with them.

As to the point on flaming, flaming is generally far less common among Entropians than it is among other communities, but everyone has their breaking point, and many of us have reached it.

I do not believe, however, that this thread has been filled with flaming, as you claim, but rather, reasonable grievances by customers who feel like they are being ignored.

Ignoring us makes us get louder, not more complacent.

As to the issue of voting, I will vote, but which side I vote will be determined by what I hear further from MA, whether that be John, or someone else, on how we can improve things together, rather than the tired old "MA holds no responsability for blah blah blah..."

 

[AlphaGeek]

...must spread more rep before awarding sledgehammer again...

 

[das]

voted, now get back to work MA/FPC

 

[sledgehammer]

...must spread more rep before awarding sledgehammer again...

rofl AG! +rep for the laugh when I get back to my pc

 

[Wed]

Ahh, the VU!!

[Future prediction mode: ON]
The people whining in this thread will in febrauary-mars start threads whining bout why MA/FPC arent at SXSW Interactive speaking about and promoting EU
[Future prediction mode: OFF]

And i voted on all 3, bad VU or not.

 

[sledgehammer]

[Future prediction mode: ON]
The people whining in this thread will in febrauary-mars start threads whining bout why MA/FPC arent at SXSW Interactive speaking about and promoting EU
[Future prediction mode: OFF]

And i voted on all 3, bad VU or not.

Couldn't care a hogglo's tit about SXSW at this point. What use will new players be if none of them stay?

 

[Wed]

Couldn't care a hogglo's tit about SXSW at this point. What use will new players be if none of them stay?

Well the SXSW is at Mars 2010, dont u think the VU is stable until then?

 

[Centech]

[Future prediction mode: ON]
The people whining in this thread will in febrauary-mars start threads whining bout why MA/FPC arent at SXSW Interactive speaking about and promoting EU
[Future prediction mode: OFF]

Oh please. I couldn't care less if MA goes to promote EU to bunch of hipster slackers. Next John Bates will be asking us to design an EU winebago to take to burning man.

All I care about in regards to EU at the moment is that it once again return to a state where you can play the @%@#$ game.

 

[Wed]

Oh please. I couldn't care less if MA goes to promote EU to bunch of hipster slackers. Next John Bates will be asking us to design an EU winebago to take to burning man.

All I care about in regards to EU at the moment is that it once again return to a state where you can play the @%@#$ game.

like i said, future precition, not at the moment prediction, guess we see in february/mars 2010 if my prediction is true or not

 

[sledgehammer]

Well the SXSW is at Mars 2010, dont u think the VU is stable until then?

Not a question for me about ingame stability by march 2010 (edit: this was more of the straw that broke the camel's back), but rather if MA will start interacting with, and listening to their customers by March 2010.

Prediction mode: ON
They won't.
Prediction mode: OFF

 

[Wed]

Not a question for me about ingame stability by march 2010, but rather if MA will start I teracting with, and listening to their customers by March 2010.

Prediction mode: ON
They won't.
Prediction mode: OFF

I agree, interaction kan be much improved from their side.. But i dont see why ppl have issues voting on this matter

 

[sledgehammer]

I agree, interaction kan be much improved from their side.. But i dont see why ppl have issues voting on this matter

Pretty simple. If they can't be arsed to engage in proper communication and responsiveness to help us, they cannot expect us to help them.

 

[Wed]

Pretty simple. If they can't be arsed to engage in proper communication and responsiveness to help us, they cannot expect us to help them.

Well voting here doesnt really only help them, it helps us also. But maby its just best we agree to disagree