MA is not a casino... proof

[Witte]

Joker is quite right, from a statistics stand point EU is not a casino at its core.

The problem is that it generally takes a lot of ped and time to see consistent statistical outcomes which demonstrate and prove this.

A demonstration that the average day gamer without the ability and/or desire to deposit 3 figure plus usd amounts or build up to such amounts can not easily achieve.

When I say the average day gamer, I also mean those who do not record and watch like a hawk their resulting outcomes, cross examine these outcomes and build trend analysis from them;

ie. Those who are here primarily for entertainment

Wrong is: stating something as if it is a fact followed by it is hard to proof

Did you know that slot machines have a fixed minimal return %, yet it is still gambling?

 

[eartling]

bah. 1094 globals with an average of 105 ped. I fail.

 

[Lavawalker]

Wrong is: stating something as if it is a fact followed by it is hard to proof

Well it is impossible to prove for certain without tearing apart and analysing the coded systems.

{deleted}

However in terms of looking at the Entropia system specifically and the multiple levels of rulesets all impacting on one another and the buffering of funds involved that can see future returns of up to 5 figures or greater (The occassional gifted spanner in the works aside).

Then it is not entirely gambling when looking at it from the accounting core perspective.

I prefer to go with the Norwegian Gaming and Foundation Authority's assessment of Entropia since the Swedish Authority is still not 100% decided if Entropia is or is not considered as gambling.

The Norwegian Gaming and Foundation Authority states that the service is not entirely gambling and is not entirely skills based but accurately placed inbetween the two.

The Swedish authorities say Entropia in general terms of gameplay is not gambling but are confused as all because it is a complex as hell system to test and appreciate any feedback to help them further test it to determine a more certain answer.

The Australian authorities are also presently undecided with their next review due sometime in 2011.

 

[Witte]

My take on it is that just the game play distinguishes EU from gambling. Whether the underlying system works similar to a system in a gambling game is of no relevance. We know it behaves like one, and thats enough to class a game as gambling. You can make a slot machine using the same "tricks" that EU is supposed to use, and it would be indistinguishable from the real thing. Yet it would still be gambling.

 

[Mojoswoptops]

I normally doubt your logic, but I just applied this to my stats. 21,300 ped total loot value divided by 210 globals on tracker equals 101 ped. Exactly in the middle of where you said. Very interesting.

 

[GoNi]

Well its the same discussion since I started with EU

Time to post it again.

EU isn´t a casino, because you can play it for totally free, as often you want, as long you want.

Try that in a casino.

There is no way to make any profit beside gambling in a casino, there are many ways to profit from EU without the need of gambling.

The fact: the plattform EU may used by gamblers, that like to gamble.
Yes, this is possible and widely used. But that doesn´t make EU a casino.

Every pub that got a slotmashine inside would have be called a casino if EU is called casino.
Even stockmarket has to be called casino, but it isn´t. Stockmarket is widely used by gamblers as well!

I don´t need any other proof.
Using my brain tells me that EU isn´t a casino!

Tell me any casino, that offers a 100% chance of profit?

Well non-depositors got a 100% chance of profit (win) in EU!

 

[jod]

I really don't understand all the conjecture over whether you use the Casino/Gambling label or not.

Does it matter?
Does it change anything depending on what label you give it?

As i said in another thread...

I really dont like to be dismissive but who cares what you call it?

You either enjoy the activity and keep doing it or you dont enjoy it and stop.

Does it really matter what label you put on it?

Apart from the 'I'm right,your wrong' argument does it really change anything?

We have what we have and you can call it 'purple elephants' if you like it still wont change anything.

 

[aia]

EU isn´t a casino, because you can play it for totally free, as often you want, as long you want.

Try that in a casino.

There are parts ingame parts where you use the casino (hunting/mining/crafting), and there are parts where you don't (trading/sweating/chatting).

To drop a bomb in mining, or to kill a mob and get loot from it - ie to "spin the wheel" - you need plain PEDs to pay for the ammo with. Then, if you're lucky, you might strike a tower on first hit or get a 3k combibo young. The fact that even fresh beginners can strike a tower on their first week or get that 3k HOF on a beginner level mob shows that there is a huge part of randomness included (ie the HOFs aren't there to even out your losses).

If some people are cought with playing with marked cards (ie cheating - scamming) - they'll be locked for a while but after a month they're free to sell their spoils (Fizzle/Sumah), instead of at least having the trades reversed.

 

[Scirry]

Well its the same discussion since I started with EU

Time to post it again.

EU isn´t a casino, because you can play it for totally free, as often you want, as long you want.

Try that in a casino.

Exactly. The reason EU is not a casino or gambling under the law is you can do it for free. Yes, it will take a lot of work to succeed, but the point is that you can participate without paying MA any real world money. That makes it not gambling, and keeps it legal in places that don't allow online gambling.

All the analysis of loot return and global size is interesting, but it has nothing to do with why it isn't gambling.

 

[Legion]

EU isn´t a casino, because you can play it for totally free, as often you want, as long you want.

that still does not make it not into a casino though. Read what i posted above and you will know why it's not a casino.

 

[jaywalker]

better hunters hunt harder mobs
better miners use bigger amps
better crafters use higher TT each craft
thats why they global more and you know it

Sorry, i only had stamina to read the first two pages.
But what Skull said completely demolishes the OP's argument.
And it was totally ignored

 

[Legion]

Exactly. The reason EU is not a casino or gambling under the law is you can do it for free. Yes, it will take a lot of work to succeed, but the point is that you can participate without paying MA any money. That makes it not gambling, and keeps it legal in places that don't allow online gambling.

All the analysis of loot return and global size is interesting, but it has nothing to do with why it isn't gambling.

it doesnt matter if you can do it for free, didnt you read what i posted? if you can win more than you put in it's gambling in sweden, and only way to make it not gambling is to make it skill and knowledgebased.

 

[aia]

if you aim for ATH its a casino indeed

It's hard to not aim for ATH/big uber, indirectly, for two reasons:
- Good weapons that drops nowdays have TT of ~10k PEDs
- All mobs have a potential jackpot that has to be funded (eg 3k on young combibo) - and for that only 3k combibo there will be 3000 lootless ones (if they cost 1 ped/each to kill)

So, if you're hunting a mob for a realistic chance to loot a repairable weapon, you have to aim for a loot worth (TT) ~10k peds. And even if you're just grinding, meanwhile you'll be paying for either yours or someone elses jackpot on that mob - beginner level mobs not excempt.

So, if you want to play actively and gain skills (ie not trading), you more or less have to gamble.

There is only one area ingame where you can, theoretically, gain peds without gambling, and that's the oil rig. But it's like complimentary drinks; if you're only there for the drinks the "security" will carry you out when you've had too much...

Ah, I almost forgot: There is another area also; looking for other peoples in (mainly) pvp4. On the other hand, in the long run, the people who are typically hunted are miners, sometimes hunters, who use the gambling system. Without miners in pvp4, the pk:ers would hunt themselves, and then they'll get the money from the loot pool which isn't divided euqally but "randomly".

 

[aia]

Yes, it will take a lot of work to succeed, but the point is that you can participate without paying MA any real world money. That makes it not gambling, and keeps it legal in places that don't allow online gambling.

There are some skills you can gain for free, mostly evading skills. But that way you cannot, practically, gain skills like serendipidy and commando. To be able to gain those skills, you (practically) need to engage in an activity that involves gambling (ie hunting).

Maybe it becomes clearer if you think of it this way: Imagine you sweat and trade until you have 1000 PEDs. See those PEDs as being in a virtual bank account. Now you can either withdraw the PEDs, or you can hunt them up. If you spend them in hunting, you can see them as for each mob you kill, it will be another spin on the wheel. You can either be lucky and hit that 3k combibo, or slowly see the money disappear to pay the "rake" and to pay other people's prizes.

The 1000 PED you gained from sweating comes from other people, of which a part will come from people who pay for it in the form of ME which is used to gain an advantage in activities like hunting/mining (or oil collecting).

it doesnt matter if you can do it for free, didnt you read what i posted? if you can win more than you put in it's gambling in sweden, and only way to make it not gambling is to make it skill and knowledgebased.

One thing that has changed since then is the differentiation of the loots. Back then, at vu 7 or something, a global was considered something special. Also getting "No loot availible here" was a message that was pretty rare. ATHs was something that was reserved to mobs with really high HP, and the mobs that could drop ATHs *always* gave loot (worth around 2 ped TT).

 

[Witte]

ATHs was something that was reserved to mobs with really high HP.

It still is. Can't find any low HP mob in the list.

 

[Scirry]

it doesnt matter if you can do it for free, didnt you read what i posted? if you can win more than you put in it's gambling in sweden, and only way to make it not gambling is to make it skill and knowledgebased.

Think more internationally.

Not all countries use Sweden's laws, and just because Sweden says it isn't gambling doesn't mean other countries have to accept their reasoning. The point of it being possible to play for free should be considered additional to your point, not in place of it.

The US laws on Internet gambling (writen in 2006), for example, specifically call out the issue of if you have to pay real money, or if you can do it for free. If you have to pay real money to play, then the issue comes up if there is risk on both ends of the connection. This we can't answer, because while many of us suspect that MA puts deposits in the loot pool and then takes a cut of repair costs, cycling everything back into a loot pool, We don't know for sure. If that is the case, this might mean they are not gambling because you can never get more payout than they have put in the pool, so they are not at risk. essentially, they can only gain through repair costs, they cannot "lose" since they don't consider the loot pool revenue until it comes out in repair. But since this is a business secret, we can't answer it here. Assuming that there is risk on both ends, then the US evaluates for how much of the activity is based on skill. That is why poker, long held to be a game of skill, is considered gambling under US law. The US says poker is less than 51% skill. But since MA passes the first test - you don't have to pay - under US law it is not gambling before the question of skill (the Swedish argument) even comes up.

If I'm not mistaken, in Canada any kind of lottery, raffle, or similar requires the winner pass a test of some sort. I don't know, but this may be similar to Sweden's skills argument.

Your point is certainly valid, but it isn't the reason everywhere. MA covered themselves very well when they designed their product... They even covered laws that hadn't been written yet!

 

[Legion]

Think more internationally.

Not all countries use Sweden's laws, and just because Sweden says it isn't gambling doesn't mean other countries have to accept their reasoning. The point of it being possible to play for free should be considered additional to your point, not in place of it.

The US laws on Internet gambling (writen in 2006), for example, specifically call out the issue of if you have to pay real money, or if you can do it for free. If you have to pay real money to play, then the issue comes up if there is risk on both ends of the connection. This we can't answer, because while many of us suspect that MA puts deposits in the loot pool and then takes a cut of repair costs, cycling everything back into a loot pool, We don't know for sure. If that is the case, this might mean they are not gambling because you can never get more payout than they have put in the pool, so they are not at risk. essentially, they can only gain through repair costs, they cannot "lose" since they don't consider the loot pool revenue until it comes out in repair. But since this is a business secret, we can't answer it here. Assuming that there is risk on both ends, then the US evaluates for how much of the activity is based on skill. That is why poker, long held to be a game of skill, is considered gambling under US law. The US says poker is less than 51% skill. But since MA passes the first test - you don't have to pay - under US law it is not gambling before the question of skill (the Swedish argument) even comes up.

If I'm not mistaken, in Canada any kind of lottery, raffle, or similar requires the winner pass a test of some sort. I don't know, but this may be similar to Sweden's skills argument.

Your point is certainly valid, but it isn't the reason everywhere. MA covered themselves very well when they designed their product... They even covered laws that hadn't been written yet!

Well the thing is they are based in sweden, thus they operate under swedish laws. Thus they dont really have to consider any other laws, it's the players that will have to consider any laws in their country in that case.

 

[aridash]

Did you know that slot machines have a fixed minimal return %, yet it is still gambling?

important point, and thats all this analysis shows: that there is a determined average return rate in globals. how general ped is returned, though skill or though luck, seems no clearer than before.

 

[Lavawalker]

I really don't understand all the conjecture over whether you use the Casino/Gambling label or not.

Does it matter?
Does it change anything depending on what label you give it?

As i said in another thread...

I really dont like to be dismissive but who cares what you call it?

You either enjoy the activity and keep doing it or you dont enjoy it and stop.

Does it really matter what label you put on it?

Apart from the 'I'm right,your wrong' argument does it really change anything?

We have what we have and you can call it 'purple elephants' if you like it still wont change anything.

Well you should care with what it is assessed as by our governing body at the end of the day.

I was quite stressed late 2008 when our governing body were making an initial assessment of Entropia as the laws by our government would make it illegal for Australians to access Entropia as soon as they flag it as a online game involving gambling of finance, ie. Online casino.

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/online_gambling

Online Gambling

Under the Interactive Gambling Act 2001(IGA),

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/comlaw/management.nsf/lookupindexpagesbyid/IP200401861?OpenDocument

Parliament established a regulatory framework which makes it an offence to provide certain interactive gambling services to a customer physically present in Australia.

The prohibited interactive gambling content under the IGA includes services that are often described as 'online casinos' and usually involve using the internet to play games of chance, or games of mixed chance and skill.

The Act can be accessed through the Comlaw website
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/comlaw/comlaw.nsf/sh/homepage

^^ Which in blue is a spot on wrap up of the Entropia Universe system and what had me worried. I think they got over me hounding them on their assessment as they said they were complete with the preliminary assessment without resolve and that a thorough investigation of the service is scheduled in 2011.

Though until such a day comes, I will play and cruise in Entropia; And wait patiently for this mysterious 5 figure ATH owed several times over by now.

 

[aia]

It still is. Can't find any low HP mob in the list.

In the past, there was a clear border between normal mobs and "ubermobs", the border was, HP-wise, between Atrox Guardian and Atrox Dominant (before they was adjusted). For instance, small Aurlis and Kreltin Youngs were *not* ubermobs, if I remember right.

 

[Legion]

Well you should care with what it is assessed as by our governing body at the end of the day.

I was quite stressed late 2008 when our governing body were making an initial assessment of Entropia as the laws by our government would make it illegal for Australians to access Entropia as soon as they flag it as a online game involving gambling of finance, ie. Online casino.

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/online_gambling



^^ Which in blue is a spot on wrap up of the Entropia Universe system and what had me worried. I think they got over me hounding them on their assessment as they said they were complete with the preliminary assessment without resolve and that a thorough investigation of the service is scheduled in 2011.

Though until such a day comes, I will play and cruise in Entropia; And wait patiently for this mysterious 5 figure ATH owed several times over by now.

well i think ur pretty safe. As by how the system is designed it's just simply not a casino or gambling what so ever. I did some preliminary tests last night for my exam and so far so good on my theories. Need to do longer tests though ofcourse.

 

[Witte]

In the past, there was a clear border between normal mobs and "ubermobs", the border was, HP-wise, between Atrox Guardian and Atrox Dominant (before they was adjusted). For instance, small Aurlis and Kreltin Youngs were *not* ubermobs, if I remember right.

That hasn't really changed, there still is a HP border for ATH's. What did change is that small mobs can give much larger loots now.

 

[jod]

Well you should care with what it is assessed as by our governing body at the end of the day.

I was quite stressed late 2008 when our governing body were making an initial assessment of Entropia as the laws by our government would make it illegal for Australians to access Entropia as soon as they flag it as a online game involving gambling of finance, ie. Online casino.

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/online_gambling



^^ Which in blue is a spot on wrap up of the Entropia Universe system and what had me worried. I think they got over me hounding them on their assessment as they said they were complete with the preliminary assessment without resolve and that a thorough investigation of the service is scheduled in 2011.

Though until such a day comes, I will play and cruise in Entropia; And wait patiently for this mysterious 5 figure ATH owed several times over by now.

Whilst I agree it matters what the authorities call it my point was rather it doesn't matter what 'we' call it.

Its already been cleared by the swedish governing body so you and I (the player base) arguing the matter has no real relevance.

On another note the current actions of our government on internet related matters is a particularly blood boiling issue for me so I'd rather not get into that here

 

[Legion]

Whilst I agree it matters what the authorities call it my point was rather it doesn't matter what 'we' call it.

Its already been cleared by the swedish governing body so you and I (the player base) arguing the matter has no real relevance.

On another note the current actions of our government on internet related matters is a particularly blood boiling issue for me so I'd rather not get into that here

The only thing is that if we players discover some new info and submit that to the lotteryinspection. As of now they havent tested everything but hunting and so on, so IF (which i doubt) i find any new info in my research for my exam we might have new info

 

[jod]

But why would you want to?

Why shake the beehive to see if there are any bees?

The only reason anyone would stir the argument up is if they are a disgruntled customer and want some sort of revenge or if they are just another do-gooder that feels we need to be legislated to save ourselves from the big bad gambling evils.

Either way the current player base stands to lose so much more from such an argument than they can potentially gain from it.

If the bear is sleeping let him be

 

[Seoul]

BS..simple BS

MA rewards those she wishes to and screws all the rest. Gambling, it is for 99.9 percent of those that play. MA does get around whatevr 'gambling' laws they have in that country...but, the way the do it is simple, they can 'award' any the deam 'worthy'...in other words, the Fair Haired Children of MA, the FHC...

End of story..

Seoul...

I am sick of the people suggesting MA is a casino... yes it is nice that the occasional noob gets an uber... but from a statistic standpoint... MA is clearly not a casino...


Entropia is NOT close to a casino... by any means...

MA has stated in everyone's support case who has bitched about returns... "your luck will change"

They can say this because it is true and this is what gets EU around gambling laws....

THE MORE U HUNT.... the more skills you get and or the better your loot gets...

If you check entropiatracker... you can see what i mean...
http://entropiatracker.com/index.asp...alltimeTopList

all the top hunters averages are 120-150 average global size (total globals divided by loot)
all the top miners average are between 130-170 average global size


now if you look at anyone with 100-300 globals their average global size will be between 85-100 peds...

there of course will be some outliers... but this trend holds true to 99% of all players...

So you see from a statistic standpoint MA is not a casino... there is a formula that goes into loot... and all people are the same in the end... on an average global standpoint...

I am not suggesting profits happen for all... but i am suggesting all peoples average global size increases...

For example...

My society mate... had around 781 globals... and 75k TT value...
this is a 96 ped average global size... far too small with someone at almost 800 globals... (compared to other hunters...)

I told him to keep it up... he should be around 100-110 peds TT on his global average by now...
110-96 = 4-14 peds... MA was shorting him 4-14 peds per global for the amount of globals he had... and to get to 110 he would need... 4-14 x 782 = around 7-10k pedder... or many hofs...


a week or 2 later he hit a 8.8k ped prot...

everyone should look at their stat tracker... and see how many globals they have...

for me i am a little above average... then most
Joker Poker Uber Smoker
131314 PED ....967 hunting globals = 135 peds average hunting loot



anyways... i hope this helps explain why and how MA is not a casino...

and shows how as you hunt more... statistically speaking... ur loot values increase... it maybe due to skills or just peds cycled... I don't have that answer...

At casinos... the more and more you pump money in... there is no grantee a higher return...
at Entropia... the more and more money you pump in (hunting and mining) there is a grantee your return will become higher and higher...

it has to... to aviod any gambling laws



And again for those who dont read very well...
I make no claims about profit... or time spent... or weapons used...

I specifically LOOK AT GLOBALS vs Total Loot

 

[Legion]

But why would you want to?

Why shake the beehive to see if there are any bees?

The only reason anyone would stir the argument up is if they are a disgruntled customer and want some sort of revenge or if they are just another do-gooder that feels we need to be legislated to save ourselves from the big bad gambling evils.

Either way the current player base stands to lose so much more from such an argument than they can potentially gain from it.

If the bear is sleeping let him be

i'm not after stirring the behive, i will design my own loot system for my exam and compare it to eu's. that's all

 

[jaywalker]

why is it i keep misreading the title of this thread as: MA is not a casino...poof

 

[fluske]

i see you hunt a lot in team though...

dutch fluske mooren 180881 PED 1741
104 peds average global...
i'am fluske's boss 56824 PED 285
almost 200 peds average global size...

i dont exactly know how team hunting effects loot but you have 100-200k peds in TT loot within a team...

looks to me your team mate got your fatty

i dont have all the answers... so maybe you are in the 5% outlier group... but it seems you have done a huge amount of team hunting

yeah,me and my wife were number 1 on alltimeteamhuntinglist last year..but we only have had maybe 5 hofs in 4 year teamhunting.....and the biggest hof was 2.5 ped orso

my wife had solo an 26k aurli..but that should have nothing to do then with my loot

 

[silas]

Poker sites like UltimateBet take a cut, as well as cut some more for the Bad Beat Jackpot(similar to ATH) But it is certainly possible to break even or make a profit. If you are not bad.

Poker has nothing to do with casino. Poker is a sport, either your good at it or not, thats what determines if your gonna profit on it in the long run