Skills and Health

[Doer]

I took a skill snapshot right when i reached 147 health and the prediction by the chipping optimizer was 147.15 at that point. Not too shabby.

Edit: At 148 it predicted 148.14.

Edit: At 149 it predicted 149.13

 

[jdegre]

I got my 137 HP yesterday, and I've uploaded to wiki my skills at the very exact moment of getting the HP increase.

I've tried playing around a little bit with the attribute %'s, but no significant improvement. I think that it's going to be a really hard task, unless MA lets us see HPs with 1-2 decimal points. Maybe in future VUs....

 

[frazz]

HP gain with club

I just got a HP gain recently. I was very surprised to see that it was the very next message after getting a gain in club skill. This was right around 1600 in clubs. Didn't think club added to HP. I'm sure there were no other skill meassages at the time, no strength or agility, just club. Sorry I did not get a screen shot

Just wanted to let you guys know that club may add HP.

 

[Witte]

I just got a HP gain recently. I was very surprised to see that it was the very next message after getting a gain in club skill. This was right around 1600 in clubs. Didn't think club added to HP. I'm sure there were no other skill meassages at the time, no strength or agility, just club. Sorry I did not get a screen shot

Just wanted to let you guys know that club may add HP.

The additional HP comes before the skillgain afaik, not after.

 

[Jimmy B]

The additional HP comes before the skillgain afaik, not after.

Correct...

 

[Manke]

I was quite surprised when it happened but I see y'all are quite busy finding out how skills affect health. So you knew drilling adds health too. Still I'd like you to enjoy this evidence it really does...

 

[firejuggler]

148 hp, 'new' stat (extracted from the xml)

1; (200) Commando -------------> 0 - 0.000000
2: (320) Courage ------------> 3909.11 - 12,21596875
3; (400) Coolness -------------> 2438.58 - 6,09645
4: (533,3) Athletics ---------> 2498.11- 4,68424901
5: (533,3) Melee Combat -----> 4312.28 - 8,08603037
6: (800) Dexterity ----------> 2861.09 - 3,5763625
7; (800) Combat Sense ---------> 0 - 0.000000
8: (1600) Perception --------> 2635.45 - 1,64715625
9; (1600) Serendipity ---------> 3433.02- 2,1456375
10: (1600) Combat Reflexes --> 3754.02 - 2,3462625
11. (1600) Handgun ---------> 4453.77- 2,78360625
12: (1600) Rifle ----------->   4046.65- 2,52915625
13: (1600) Weapons Handling -> 3858.21 - 2,41138125
14. (1600) Drilling ---------> 1408.75- 0,88046875
15: (1600) Mining ------------> 2846.42 -1,7790125
16. (1600) Prospecting ------> 2017.94 - 1,2612125
17. (1600) Surveying --------> 729.21 -0,45575625

total 52,89871063

18. (40) Agility --------------> 68.88- 1.722
19. (40) Intelligence ---------> 55,94-  1.3985
20. (40) Psyche--------------> 26.12 - 0.653
21. (40) Strength-------------> 70.21 - 1.75525
total 5,52875

58,42746063 -2 =56.42746063
difference :
148-56.42746063=91,57253937

now if we count with stamina as regular hp attribute ---> 91,34753937

skill not accounted yet that may explain the hp difference

engineering : 1592.36
CGA : 340.21
extraction: 723.51
whip: 244.86

if you need any other stat, i still have the complete data of the earlier post

 

[Doer]

148 hp, 'new' stat (extracted from the xml)

1; (200) Commando -------------> 0 - 0.000000
2: (320) Courage ------------> 3909.11 - 12,21596875
3; (400) Coolness -------------> 2438.58 - 6,09645
4: (533,3) Athletics ---------> 2498.11- 4,68424901
5: (533,3) Melee Combat -----> 4312.28 - 8,08603037
6: (800) Dexterity ----------> 2861.09 - 3,5763625
7; (800) Combat Sense ---------> 0 - 0.000000
8: (1600) Perception --------> 2635.45 - 1,64715625
9; (1600) Serendipity ---------> 3433.02- 2,1456375
10: (1600) Combat Reflexes --> 3754.02 - 2,3462625
11. (1600) Handgun ---------> 4453.77- 2,78360625
12: (1600) Rifle ----------->   4046.65- 2,52915625
13: (1600) Weapons Handling -> 3858.21 - 2,41138125
14. (1600) Drilling ---------> 1408.75- 0,88046875
15: (1600) Mining ------------> 2846.42 -1,7790125
16. (1600) Prospecting ------> 2017.94 - 1,2612125
17. (1600) Surveying --------> 729.21 -0,45575625

total 52,89871063

18. (40) Agility --------------> 68.88- 1.722
19. (40) Intelligence ---------> 55,94-  1.3985
20. (40) Psyche--------------> 26.12 - 0.653
21. (40) Strength-------------> 70.21 - 1.75525
total 5,52875

58,42746063 -2 =56.42746063
difference :
148-56.42746063=91,57253937

now if we count with stamina as regular hp attribute ---> 91,34753937

skill not accounted yet that may explain the hp difference

engineering : 1592.36
CGA : 340.21
extraction: 723.51
whip: 244.86

if you need any other stat, i still have the complete data of the earlier post

Whip doesn't give health, neither does engineering.

 

[Jimmy B]

Nice 10 day HP gain rate there Doer!

148 hp, 'new' stat (extracted from the xml)

1; (200) Commando -------------> 0 - 0.000000
2: (320) Courage ------------> 3909.11 - 12,21596875
3; (400) Coolness -------------> 2438.58 - 6,09645
4: (533,3) Athletics ---------> 2498.11- 4,68424901
5: (533,3) Melee Combat -----> 4312.28 - 8,08603037
6: (800) Dexterity ----------> 2861.09 - 3,5763625
7; (800) Combat Sense ---------> 0 - 0.000000
8: (1600) Perception --------> 2635.45 - 1,64715625
9; (1600) Serendipity ---------> 3433.02- 2,1456375
10: (1600) Combat Reflexes --> 3754.02 - 2,3462625
11. (1600) Handgun ---------> 4453.77- 2,78360625
12: (1600) Rifle ----------->   4046.65- 2,52915625
13: (1600) Weapons Handling -> 3858.21 - 2,41138125
14. (1600) Drilling ---------> 1408.75- 0,88046875
15: (1600) Mining ------------> 2846.42 -1,7790125
16. (1600) Prospecting ------> 2017.94 - 1,2612125
17. (1600) Surveying --------> 729.21 -0,45575625

total 52,89871063

18. (40) Agility --------------> 68.88- 1.722
19. (40) Intelligence ---------> 55,94-  1.3985
20. (40) Psyche--------------> 26.12 - 0.653
21. (40) Strength-------------> 70.21 - 1.75525
total 5,52875

58,42746063 -2 =56.42746063
difference :
148-56.42746063=91,57253937

now if we count with stamina as regular hp attribute ---> 91,34753937

skill not accounted yet that may explain the hp difference

engineering : 1592.36
CGA : 340.21
extraction: 723.51
whip: 244.86

if you need any other stat, i still have the complete data of the earlier post

Putting both CGA and Extraction at 2 HP per 1600 gives 1.33 HP which is pretty eerily close to the 1.34753937 extra you have there.

Could be just coincidence, but close enough to be worth further testing for sure. I don't have either unfortunately - has anyone fap tested these two?

 

[wizzszz]

I managed to catch a screenie of all my skills exactly on the last HP gain!
(CGA and extraction unlocked as well)

Didn't manage to get the tools to count my pixel bars...
(maybe because I play in low gfx mode to avoid lag)

Anyhow, im too lazy to do it by hand, if anyone is interested, just PM me where to send the screenshots (icq, msn or via email), its a bit too much to upload it.

Jdegres tool show around 0.2 HP more than i actually have,
i've never chipped, so all skills are "naturally" gained along with the attributes!

/Edit:
I've updated my skills at entropedia to what they were on the health gain(no decimals though), but i can only guarantee to leave them unchanged for the next 2 days!

 

[firejuggler]

will be hard, cga come often with geo/surv and extraction with mining/driling

now, if we manage to prove that cga and extraction give hp, we can ask ourselves about miner/mineral sense.

(sorry to have put so many decimal.. i guess 3 are enought, but i wanted to be as exact as i could)

 

[Avery]

Could be just coincidence, but close enough to be worth further testing for sure. I don't have either unfortunately - has anyone fap tested these two?

I FAP tested both around 22 months ago. Neither seemed to give hp. Maybe time for another test.

 

[Shackleton]

Nice 10 day HP gain rate there Doer!



Putting both CGA and Extraction at 2 HP per 1600 gives 1.33 HP which is pretty eerily close to the 1.34753937 extra you have there.

Could be just coincidence, but close enough to be worth further testing for sure. I don't have either unfortunately - has anyone fap tested these two?

Well I haven't fap tested either one but I have chipped out both skills a couple of times and not lost any health from doing it...

 

[Xen]

I fap tested cga, extraction and mineral sense several times today and none seem to give health.

 

[firejuggler]

chipped out extraction just to see, no health loose. so it seem that extraction, at least do not give hp


[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

 

[Jimmy B]

Shame, thanks for the confirmations everyone.

That looks like a disasterous chipping error in the screenie there fire

 

[firejuggler]

yup it is. 70 ped for the community, i guess

 

[Mar73]

Hi all just a quick Q:

I now have 411 coolness points and yet to gain an HP ?
If Coolness gives 4 hp per 1600 points I tought I would gain 1 hp every 400 points no ?
Have a nice day

 

[Jimmy B]

Hi all just a quick Q:

I now have 411 coolness points and yet to gain an HP ?
If Coolness gives 4 hp per 1600 points I tought I would gain 1 hp every 400 points no ?
Have a nice day

HP gain is continuous (ie. 40 coolness gains you 0.1 HP). Every time you gain skill in a HP contributor your HP increases a little. You 'officially' gain a HP when all of your skill contributions move you up to, say, 130.00 from 129.99.

 

[Xen]

I did not see any reference to it... has anyone actually tested to see if support weapon systems gives health? Would be logical if it did as rifle and handgun do..

 

[Jimmy B]

I did not see any reference to it... has anyone actually tested to see if support weapon systems gives health? Would be logical if it did as rifle and handgun do..

I fap tested it while I was working out the %ages for the professions. Doesn't seem to give HP, nor EPWT.

 

[BlackHawk]

I've noticed that in Jdegre tool health shows a small error...
I had an ideea but is not so easy to put it on forum... but I'll try.
what if Health level is on a diferent form? like:

Health=(A1*SKILL1+A2*Skill2+...+An*SKILLn) + (B*SKILL1*SKILL2*...*SKILLn)^(1/n)
....esy to manage... not so hard to implement... minor changes to original formula...
Ofcourse, it can be harder if in the geometric media are not all the ski..s that are in the aritmetic one...
That can be put in diferent...

Health=C1(Aritmetic)+C2(Geometric)
But also Armonic or diferent series can be used...

 

[Jimmy B]

I've noticed that in Jdegre tool health shows a small error...
I had an ideea but is not so easy to put it on forum... but I'll try.
what if Health level is on a diferent form? like:

Health=(A1*SKILL1+A2*Skill2+...+An*SKILLn) + (B*SKILL1*SKILL2*...*SKILLn)^(1/n)
....esy to manage... not so hard to implement... minor changes to original formula...
Ofcourse, it can be harder if in the geometric media are not all the ski..s that are in the aritmetic one...
That can be put in diferent...

Health=C1(Aritmetic)+C2(Geometric)
But also Armonic or diferent series can be used...

Its possible BlackHawk yes, but like you say, if its not linear then there's all sorts of series that are possible so it'll be pretty hard for us to ever fully figure it out.

The linear series seems to work pretty well though. And unless I missed it, we still don't really know for sure what HP we start with exactly. My gut feeling is MG's method for testing the individual skills is valid and we've probably got their contributions right. The impact of attributes is somewhat harder to work out since we can't chip them, so the error may well be from attributes. Also possible we've missed out a high level skill unlock that contributes. Or yes, there could be a small non-linear contribution from the skills.

I'm pretty much out of ideas really as to what we can do to realistically move forward, unless someone has a eureka moment or MA suddenly decide to provide us with more information...

 

[wizzszz]

I'm pretty sure the small error comes from attributes and the unknow start value (health an "new born", unskilled new has)

Can't remember who posted it, but "natural skillers" seem to have a lower deviation than "chippers", because attributes don't rise along with the skills.

It would surely be helpful if we get someone who chips out all skills anyway to post his data from before and after (and maybe skill up a bit till first new HP is gained)...

I have posted some data on my last HP gain a while ago (and i still have the data), but noone took notice, so i guess nobody's working on it anymore...

(And the deviation is very low anyway)

 

[JoLin]

It appears from the picture, that was from a Courage skill gain.

Don't know why I would get the "extra health" before the "courage" if I got health from courage. Anyway my courage was at 2389 at the time of this healthgain and nothing else was close to anything either, I think the health comes from strenght. (I don't have a screenshot of what happened before the healthgain but I do believe there was strenghtgain there. I am now also a bit over 40 in strenght and have not gotten an extra health for that.)

 

[Jimmy B]

Don't know why I would get the "extra health" before the "courage" if I got health from courage. Anyway my courage was at 2389 at the time of this healthgain and nothing else was close to anything either, I think the health comes from strenght. (I don't have a screenshot of what happened before the healthgain but I do believe there was strenghtgain there. I am now also a bit over 40 in strenght and have not gotten an extra health for that.)

No, the HP message always comes first, followed by the skill gain message. Don't ask me why hehe but that's how it works.

Since all the skills contribute cumulatively they can come it any point on the skill that triggers it. ie. when you have 99.999 HP gaining enough in any of the contributing skills to gain you 0.001 HP will trigger the HP gain message.

Strength does contribute too, or so we believe, but that HP gain message was from the Courage skill gain trust me

It would surely be helpful if we get someone who chips out all skills anyway to post his data from before and after (and maybe skill up a bit till first new HP is gained)...

I think we have some data along those lines. The difficulty is that if after chipping out they have 96 HP, all we know is that their HP is somewhere between 96.000 and 96.999, so it doesn't tell us anything exact.

(Yes, true, skilling up until the first new HP is gained would make that pretty useful. We could do the same with a complete noob but obviously its quite hard to find complete noobs who are interested in such issues and understand everything that we need to know)

I think the best thing to do would be for some of us to post all our skills and attributes from NRF immediately upon a HP gain (some of the people who are noticing big discrepancies would be useful). The initial difficulty is getting the data, but if there is a nonlinear relationship like BlackHawk suggests the data on its own may not be enough

 

[wizzszz]

(Yes, true, skilling up until the first new HP is gained would make that pretty useful. We could do the same with a complete noob but obviously its quite hard to find complete noobs who are interested in such issues and understand everything that we need to know)

I've given up on mentoring long ago...

but i'd happily donate 10 ped if someone with 96 HP is willing to provide the data on first HP gain.
(Check your disciples, everyone!)

 

[Immortal]

I've given up on mentoring long ago...

but i'd happily donate 10 ped if someone with 96 HP is willing to provide the data on first HP gain.
(Check your disciples, everyone!)

I only just had my second HP gain.
My first came when I was still using opalo (about 75% eaten), and had repaired castorian en-knuckles about five times (used the knuckles a lot during my first week).
I kinda remember what my skills looked like - I'd have to check them though (at work now )

I recently chipped in a few laser skills, and got my second HP yesterday...
This is after TPing almost all of Calypso and beyond. ( the TP's I don't have are the one sW of solfais and the one west of new switzerland)

Would have killed 1500-2000 mobs. (including merp prowlers and ambulimax young with opalo) lots of faucervix, argonauts, merps, berycled. Of course I have slightly better skills now >_>

 

[MG Mighty]

I've given up on mentoring long ago...

but i'd happily donate 10 ped if someone with 96 HP is willing to provide the data on first HP gain.
(Check your disciples, everyone!)

I want those 10 PED
(nah just teasing, so far it has costed much more than that just in the decay of Inserters, I did it for the sake of increasing our knowledge)

I have the data of how much still an old time newcommer requires to get to 91 HP.

I was expecting to get a disciple to do a better test on the contributions of the other Attributes to Health (so far I was only able to narrow Agility to the 38-42 range, so I'm guessing that 40 was correct).

I believe that the required ammount of skills was an increase of 220ish skills (I don't remember right now) in a skill that gives 1 HP each 1600 levels (mining)
Making the health start level to those who had 20 Agility, Strength, Intelligence, Psyche to about:

90.86


(knowing this it is obvious that the possibility that some Attributes aren't giving 1 HP each 40 levels - or that there is an unlocked skill that is giving HP, since the difference, between what is predicted and what was recorded when the health gain message was obtained, becomes higher in über players.

 

[wizzszz]

... i'd happily donate 10 ped ...

You see? Thats the way to get things going, Jimmy B!

Immortal, to qualify for the peds you have to make screenies EXACTLY on first HP gain (skill gains & "You've gained additional health" should be visible in the screenies)

Mg, do you have some data to back it up?

Is it correct that newbs start with 1 in every attribute now?

I have a (now almost completely inactive) soc mate that chipped out every skill that contributes to health, maybe i can get him to skill a bit until the next HP gain kicks in!

And i have made screenies myself on (so far) 2 different HP gains, as a a sample for non-chippers.
(Jdegres tool shows around 0.15 HPs more, and it should be less, for i havent entered decimals for the skill values, coz i update it manually)

The question is: Is someone out there willing to do the calculations as soon as we have the data? All i've done so far is gathering some data, and i would have to start from scratch...