What is the connection between Rocktropia and Jango Airplay?

[Kemp]

They make their money from advertising. MTV and traditional radio stations pay royalties to the artists whose work they broadcast. They don't charge the musicians - not officially anyway, as Thorn indicated above payola does still go on behind the scenes.

Ever heard of the term "plugging"...
That means paying to get played. Not getting paid because they play you. How on earth do you think the next 13 in a dozen dance act gets plaid on MTV? Definitely not because MTV likes their creativity that much and pays them.
As soon as they (their record label) have paid enough so everybody goes screaming mad from hearing the song again and again and again, they probably also have sold enough records to make a profit. This trade is as old as well, as old as pop music probably.

Don't think that official or under the table payment makes a difference...

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

I was interested in writing a book once and came across some companies that charge you to publish the book.

This sounds very similar to that. In the book industry they are termed ,"Vanity Press"


I know someone who used such a service and they were exploited imho, as they paid a fair bit to get a book published for no gain whatsoever apart from their own vanity...

 

[aridash]

Ever heard of the term "plugging"...
That means paying to get played. Not getting paid because they play you. How on earth do you think the next 13 in a dozen dance act gets plaid on MTV? Definitely not because MTV likes their creativity that much and pays them.
As soon as they (their record label) have paid enough so everybody goes screaming mad from hearing the song again and again and again, they probably also have sold enough records to make a profit. This trade is as old as well, as old as pop music probably

i think you have a very odd and incorrect idea of music industry and how and where money is made. MTV does play videos precisely because of their creativity, usually focusing on the visual element rather than the music. as i understand it, a musician will earn more in royalities from MTV/TV play then from single sales, which lose money for the record label (they are effectivly promotional material for the albums).

and "plugging" is usualy the practice of mentioning your record/book/film in conversation. maybe theres a differnt meaning/mistranslation to Dutch.

 

[Oleg]

Ever heard of the term "plugging"...
That means paying to get played. Not getting paid because they play you. How on earth do you think the next 13 in a dozen dance act gets plaid on MTV? Definitely not because MTV likes their creativity that much and pays them.
As soon as they (their record label) have paid enough so everybody goes screaming mad from hearing the song again and again and again, they probably also have sold enough records to make a profit. This trade is as old as well, as old as pop music probably.

Don't think that official or under the table payment makes a difference...

You have the wrong idea about plugging.

Radio/TV pluggers are people hired (usually by record labels but it could also be done by an independent musician) to get the product (i.e. a track, video, whatever) brought to the attention of those who make the decisions on what is to be playlisted.

The guys who make the playlists for MTV are hard to get to. Even major labels don't have much chance without having a plugger who has a good relationship with the decision-maker, so they pay the plugger to push the songs they want to promote.

At no point are the stations paid for the plays. Radio pluggers are a perfectly respectable part of the industry (although a lot of people aren't keen on the idea of paying a middleman, as was mentioned earlier).

Spending money on advertising and promotion is not the same thing as pay-to-play.

 

[Oleg]

I was interested in writing a book once and came across some companies that charge you to publish the book.

This sounds very similar to that. In the book industry they are termed ,"Vanity Press"


I know someone who used such a service and they were exploited imho, as they paid a fair bit to get a book published for no gain whatsoever apart from their own vanity...

Yes, 'promotions' like this one are the musical version of vanity publishing.

There's a more direct comparison in companies who charge musicians to have tracks included on compilations CD which they claim to send out to their specially targetted industry contacts (i.e. they send stuff unsolicited to a mailing list and 99% of them end up going straight in the bin). Not quite what Jango do, but along the same lines.

 

[Tosi]

Subscribing.

 

[Hurrikane]

I was interested in writing a book once and came across some companies that charge you to publish the book.

This sounds very similar to that. In the book industry they are termed ,"Vanity Press"


I know someone who used such a service and they were exploited imho, as they paid a fair bit to get a book published for no gain whatsoever apart from their own vanity...

Yep, the huge problem with Vanity Publishing, and also these Pay-To-Play schemes, is the bypassing of quality control.

If you write a book, or record a song, and it is any good, and people will buy it, sooner or later a publisher/record company will pick it up. They are in the publishing/music industry to make money. You might get a good deal or a limited release by a minor label, but quality shines through, because it sells.

If you ignore all the rejection letters, adamant that your work is superbly original and is what the public needs, and pay for it to get out there... guess what, no-one will buy it. What's more, in the case of a radio station that plays the half-assed attempts of average to downright awful musicians, no-one will even listen to it. The station will get less and less listeners.

Better to keep polishing, keep sending things off, and listen to criticism than waste money giving people product they don't want.

As someone currently beavering away on a magnum opus, there's only one situation I can imagine where I'd use such a service; if no-one picked it up, at all, if all my edits and rewrites still didn't get me a deal, I'd possibly pay to get half a dozen copies bound and printed for my own satisfaction of having a book with my name on it. That's the vanity part. I would never imagine such a book would sell though.

Hurrikane

 

[mastermesh]

It's just bad...

It's just bad to expect an artist of any sort to pay for airtime so to speak... That includes writers, musicians, and visual artists as well as anyone in video or broadcasting. It's called exploitation, especially when the people asking for money are calling for copyrights too...

 

[fo0d]

This might shed some light...

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

 

[Bones]

As someone currently beavering away on a magnum opus, there's only one situation I can imagine where I'd use such a service; if no-one picked it up, at all, if all my edits and rewrites still didn't get me a deal, I'd possibly pay to get half a dozen copies bound and printed for my own satisfaction of having a book with my name on it. That's the vanity part. I would never imagine such a book would sell though.

Hurrikane

I will submit an advanced order for one of those copies , please let me know when they are available : )


Bones

 

[NEVERDIE]

Goto www.jango.com/music/neverdie And r...new demographic and that is our top priority.

 

[Harvest]

Music is a tough business. Being a musician right now your either really stupid or an actual musician. The market for music is in the toilet imo. The musicians are almost to the point where they are willing to pay the audience just to be heard, that makes things like Jango the middle man, Jango should be paying me 3% for any fraud waste and abuse that happens when I listen.

I have listened to lots of stuff where I have told the band, "Sounds great, you would had been rich 15 years ago, but as it is today your gonna have to blow a fire ball out your ass to ever get someone to come back to your show."

I dont think Jango and giving kids tickets to sell to their friends for their only profit are good things but you have to realize musicians are fighting a huge up hill struggle just to find an audience. You have to be really good(hahaha) or you have to do something never seen before(gl with that) other wise your gonna have to figure something out to cover the spread.

 

[Oleg]

Thanks for your response Neverdie, it's interesting to hear more about how the Rocktropia/Jango partnership is going to develop.

I had a look at the comments on your page and most of them are one or two words, in many cases I suspect copied and pasted onto many different artist pages. I can't really see how this is any way valuable to a musician.

Have any of those people bought your album?

You haven't commented at all on the question of exploitation. You acknowledge that Jango is controversial but that's as far as it goes.

As you can see from this thread, I'm not the only one who considers such services disreputable and unethical. It's sadly a growing phenomena these days.

Linking up with Jango indicates, to me, a lack of integrity and more interest in the cash than the music. It makes me think that the studios and other features for musicians that you've hinted at will be similarly exploitative, but I'll wait to hear the details of those before I make a judgement.

Is this a planet for musicians, or a planet designed to make money from musicians? It seems like the latter.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

 

[NEVERDIE]

Well oleg u need to read the comments further than that and u will see as you go through em all 75 pages .. You will see that many of them refer specifically to " I am my avatar" and combined with the comments and the pop score ratings I have been able to establish that this is my most popular song, hence I have expanded my marketing beyond jango...however all the feedback I got from jango was extremely helpful to me... And continues to be... So I am happy to endorse this service to other artists...

As far as e tokens are concerned on Rocktropia , they are free like finding fruit or prizes from missions...

So rocktropia will be giving artists free airplay so they can gain valuable feedback...remember I'm the artist here that uses the service and finds value in it.. You are just playingnthe role of judge...

Millions of people use jangonto listen to music and build radio stations coz it's a fun service, they tolerate having newe artists shoved into their playlists only because then service was good... If e service was no good.. Then there would be nothing to pay them for...

i have followed a lot of yr posts on this forum since e launch of Rocktropia and I can see younare pretty unhappy... I don't have a lot of time to damage control on these forums, since we really mat focus on growing our planet not trying to appease the frustrations of the existing community..

As far as we are concerned EU is like the iPad or windows and rocktropia is just an app that utilizes this great platform andnoffers something to a target demographic, I do wish sincerely thatnthe existing user base will enjoy it, but I'm tryingnto appeal to a different market and expand the overall user base...

It's gonna be hard enough as it is without all the constant attacks from within...

You are all well aware how long overdue Vu 10'was and now how long overdue the planets the new planets have been...this has been extraordinarily difficult just to get this far... Tons of stuff that we want to do is gonna have to wait until the time is right... There are still many of the old eu systems still not back so obviously many néw things are further back in the pipeline...

Our marketing has not kicked in yet...
it will be an uphill battle.
I hope the existing community will at least not try to sabotage our efforts.

Whatever your suspicions are .. The bottom line is I'm a singer songwriter artist.. Good or bad doesn't matter...

I passionately promote my music and that of other artists I work with..
I believe in Eu as platform for music. I have enjoyed the feedback from this community I want to make a planet that is geared toward that.. In my own way good or bad...

eu is just as controversial as jango , I love em both...

I know u probably love eu too, so I ask with all due respect, don't ask for any more of my time here to justify my plans or visions...

Feel free to write your threads and critize or whatever, but if u send me personal PMs to comment, you are drawing me away from my job...

The only reason I have taken the time for this is because I really like jango and I don't want threads like this surfacing unchallenged..

Thanks and GL everyone!

- ND

 

[NEVERDIE]

Sorry about spelling, this was sent from my iPad in a hurry

Well oleg u need to read the comments further than that and u will see as you go through em all 75 pages .. You will see that many of them refer specifically to " I am my avatar" and combined with the comments and the pop score ratings I have been able to establish that this is my most popular song, hence I have expanded my marketing beyond jango...however all the feedback I got from jango was extremely helpful to me... And continues to be... So I am happy to endorse this service to other artists...

As far as e tokens are concerned on Rocktropia , they are free like finding fruit or prizes from missions...

So rocktropia will be giving artists free airplay so they can gain valuable feedback...remember I'm the artist here that uses the service and finds value in it.. You are just playingnthe role of judge...

Millions of people use jangonto listen to music and build radio stations coz it's a fun service, they tolerate having newe artists shoved into their playlists only because then service was good... If e service was no good.. Then there would be nothing to pay them for...

i have followed a lot of yr posts on this forum since e launch of Rocktropia and I can see younare pretty unhappy... I don't have a lot of time to damage control on these forums, since we really mat focus on growing our planet not trying to appease the frustrations of the existing community..

As far as we are concerned EU is like the iPad or windows and rocktropia is just an app that utilizes this great platform andnoffers something to a target demographic, I do wish sincerely thatnthe existing user base will enjoy it, but I'm tryingnto appeal to a different market and expand the overall user base...

It's gonna be hard enough as it is without all the constant attacks from within...

You are all well aware how long overdue Vu 10'was and now how long overdue the planets the new planets have been...this has been extraordinarily difficult just to get this far... Tons of stuff that we want to do is gonna have to wait until the time is right... There are still many of the old eu systems still not back so obviously many néw things are further back in the pipeline...

Our marketing has not kicked in yet...
it will be an uphill battle.
I hope the existing community will at least not try to sabotage our efforts.

Whatever your suspicions are .. The bottom line is I'm a singer songwriter artist.. Good or bad doesn't matter...

I passionately promote my music and that of other artists I work with..
I believe in Eu as platform for music. I have enjoyed the feedback from this community I want to make a planet that is geared toward that.. In my own way good or bad...

eu is just as controversial as jango , I love em both...

I know u probably love eu too, so I ask with all due respect, don't ask for any more of my time here to justify my plans or visions...

Feel free to write your threads and critize or whatever, but if u send me personal PMs to comment, you are drawing me away from my job...

The only reason I have taken the time for this is because I really like jango and I don't want threads like this surfacing unchallenged..

Thanks and GL everyone!

- ND

 

[Profit]

Just so I'm clear;

You pay to have your music played and you receive no royalties?
And MA expect us to give up copyrights too, correct?

 

[Executor]

Deleted post.

 

[Witte]

I am more in agreement with ND in this one. Who are we, the non-artists, to decide what artists should or should not do? If an artist doesn't want to use that service then nobody is forcing him. As long as Jango doesn't exercise false and misleading advertisement, nobody is hurt. Besides, we are not talking about absurd amounts of money anyway, so it is hardly exploitation anyway. Ever considered that an artist just enjoys getting the opportunity to let people listen to his music, and isn't even in it for the money?

About the ethics of paying to be played, moral is changing constantly. Everybody is "stealing" music, and stealing is bad. But I have yet to find the person who has not done it. There is a moral shift that says "stealing music is ok". I think younger generations won't even have any moral objections. In the end, it is us the humans who decide what is good an what is bad, it is not a written rule that can not change. On the contrary, it is changing rapidly. So in this case I say it is up to the artist to decide if it is good or bad.

 

[Chrome]

Everybody is "stealing" music, and stealing is bad. But I have yet to find the person who has not done it. There is a moral shift that says "stealing music is ok". I think younger generations won't even have any moral objections.

A little off the topic of jango, but this needs to be addressed.

If stealing is bad, why is it becoming ok? Just because you may have done it in the past doesn't mean you should continue to do it, nor is it ok for young people to feel this is acceptable.



If you happened to get caught shoplifting as a teenager, if you ended up in court, paying a fine, doing time, whatever, you would have hopefully learned a lesson and not do it again right?

Even if you have copied music in the past, don't f'in do it anymore.

If you hear a song you like on the radio, be sure you support the artist and buy the cd, or pay for a downloaded copy for your own personal use.



If other people offer to make a copy of a cd for you, politely decline and specifically state that copying music is illegal. Tell them you will pay for the music and buy it yourself.

If someone asks you to copy some music for them, politely decline and specifically state that copying music is illegal. Encourage them to actually buy the music if they like it so much.



If some people make the effort to change their behavior regarding music, copyright laws, and "stealing", then maybe we as a society could actually alter the course of music history.

 

[Profit]

Just so I'm clear;

You pay to have your music played and you receive no royalties?
And MA expect us to give up copyrights too, correct?

Has this not been answered because the answer is "correct!" and it would be bad for marketing to answer that in public?
In lieu of an official answer, this is the assumption I will assert as the truth.

This Jango thing is really of little importance, the biggest issue here, is my (and other artists) right of ownership.
Nothing else even comes close to being as fundamentally game-changing (from the perspective of creating music) as the issue of copyright ownership within EU.

This has to be addressed!

Did Motorhead have to give over copyright of the Motorhead material used in EU? Or did MA just not mention it and hope they didn't read the EULA?

Back on-topic:
Jango is not theft, it's vanity publishing.
(I typed more about Jango, but I didn't want to offend anyone in this very easily offended forum).

 

[Witte]

A little off the topic of jango, but this needs to be addressed.

If stealing is bad, why is it becoming ok? Just because you may have done it in the past doesn't mean you should continue to do it, nor is it ok for young people to feel this is acceptable.



If you happened to get caught shoplifting as a teenager, if you ended up in court, paying a fine, doing time, whatever, you would have hopefully learned a lesson and not do it again right?

Even if you have copied music in the past, don't f'in do it anymore.

If you hear a song you like on the radio, be sure you support the artist and buy the cd, or pay for a downloaded copy for your own personal use.



If other people offer to make a copy of a cd for you, politely decline and specifically state that copying music is illegal. Tell them you will pay for the music and buy it yourself.

If someone asks you to copy some music for them, politely decline and specifically state that copying music is illegal. Encourage them to actually buy the music if they like it so much.



If some people make the effort to change their behavior regarding music, copyright laws, and "stealing", then maybe we as a society could actually alter the course of music history.

You are no authority to decide that downloading music for free is bad. In fact, nobody is. My point was that moral changes, and in this case it is up to the artist to decide what is good an bad.

 

[mastermesh]

I am more in agreement with ND in this one. Who are we, the non-artists, to decide what artists should or should not do?

Speak for yourself. As a visual artist, this sort of thing is a bit highly offensive. It assumes that artists just want to get their works seen by more viewers. It causes the general public to not want to pay artists the amount of money they deserve. It causes the artists to not seek the payments they deserve. It does a massive injustice to the entire world community of artists and the general public because it causes the masses to not consider the art, music, etc. to be worth paying for...

Is this thing going to cause popups and junk? A quick google found me this... it's a few years old, so maybe they changed things??...
http://forum.bandmix.com/viewtopic.php?t=10899&view=next&sid=ce5e7c9f30043753caf13ee172d774e1

The best part of the concept is that your own songs get played along with songs of a similar genre. the part I don't like is that it appears like a pop-up ad, I think a lot of people might get it off their screen before they listen to it. I have no idea if their prices are good or not. In theory it sounds reasonable. I wish there was some way to contact other musicians who have done this and get their feedback. I also didn't read the terms very extensively. I glanced over it briefly. What I read looked okay, but you have to really read the fine print. There is also no way to know how many times per week, per month, etc. when your song might appear. They probably have numbers they could provide you, but I would hope that if you pay for 1,000 plays it doesn't get spread out over three months.

Guess it's "dynamic" like the ad system in EU...

http://jangoairplay.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html

In an effort to encourage listener participation in the ratings process, we simplified the popup that shows when your music is playing. Funny enough, now that it's so easy to respond, listeners are more willing to tell us how much they like your music!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_Play

In the visual arts

Similar to the trend cited above in music, Pay to Play is the practice of visual artists paying gallery owners, dealers, curators, publishers, festival and contest sponsors, and better-established artists to critique, review, judge, exhibit, collect, or publish works created in such disparate media as painting, photography, video, and sculpture. Pay to Play is a mild form of vanity publishing. Pay to Play is characterized by cash flow that moves away from visual artists. Pay to Play is sold to visual artists and justified by visual artists as "an investment in future sales" and may be self-victimization.

In sex work

Pay to play refers also to prostitution.

Do you really want to make yourself in to the musical version of a prostitute? (maybe that's why all the NPC's on Rocktropia look the way they do, lol)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10190726-27.html


http://stanleywong.org/rss/TechCrunch/2009/03/www.qik.com

Given the scandalous history of pay-for-play on terrestrial radio, it is not surprising that people are skeptical about whether it is a good idea to bring it to the Web. Matt Rosoff at Cnet sums it up:

This tarnishes the entire service with a distinct air of “suck”.

 

[Witte]

Speak for yourself. As a visual artist, this sort of thing is a bit highly offensive. It assumes that artists just want to get their works seen by more viewers. It causes the general public to not want to pay artists the amount of money they deserve. It causes the artists to not seek the payments they deserve. It does a massive injustice to the entire world community of artists and the general public because it causes the masses to not consider the art, music, etc. to be worth paying for...

But how do you determine how much an artist "deserves"? The internet is unstoppable and will change our morals, whether we like it or not. It is not just art that we expect to be free, but also information and entertainment. Maybe we just need to change the way artists are being rewarded.

 

[Profit]

But how do you determine how much an artist "deserves"? The internet is unstoppable and will change our morals, whether we like it or not. It is not just art that we expect to be free, but also information and entertainment. Maybe we just need to change the way artists are being rewarded.

And maybe I should expect my house be built for free, or any number of other professions to be free, or "payed for on behalf" and accept it, because of the internet?
I'ma be waiting, chillin next to my "Ferrari payed me to buy this" Ferrari with my hands out at Apple for my iPad and pay cheque...
Really? Show me where to go to sign up!



[edit]
Since I can see this is heading waaay off-topic lol, I'ma just highlight the fact that I made this reply in rhetoric.

 

[Chrome]

You are no authority to decide that downloading music for free is bad. In fact, nobody is. My point was that moral changes, and in this case it is up to the artist to decide what is good an bad.

Excuse me? I never said downloading music for free is bad, as long as the artist gives the authority to have music available at no cost. Of course artists may share their work however they see fit, that is their choice.

STEALING music is bad, you said so yourself... remember?

But how do you determine how much an artist "deserves"? The internet is unstoppable and will change our morals, whether we like it or not. It is not just art that we expect to be free, but also information and entertainment. Maybe we just need to change the way artists are being rewarded.

The worth of an artist, and how much they "deserve", is determined by the public, popularity, supply and demand, income to cover recording, production, and performance expenses, etc. Some people actually make a living, making an income providing music to people, no need to change they way they get "rewarded".

 

[Witte]

And maybe I should expect my house be built for free, or any number of other professions to be free, or "payed for on behalf" and accept it, because of the internet?
I'ma be waiting, chillin next to my "Ferrari payed me to buy this" Ferrari with my hands out at Apple for my iPad and pay cheque... just show me where to go to sign up!

I am just describing what is happening, moral is changing, and we can't stop it. I don't really get your point, houses and ferrari's can't be downloaded

 

[Pirx Danford]

The internet is unstoppable and will change our morals, whether we like it or not.

This is the complete truth and every company which does not adapt will ultimately fail.
Artists like NEVERDIE might create music and movies of arguable quality, but he is not ahead of the times he is swimming right with the trend and will have a good amount of success only by this alone no matter how good or bad his art is.

In my opinion each and any thing that was earning money by "just being on display" like art in museums or in galleries, like books and yes like music in events: they all will be digital in the future.
The first devices capable of generating touchable 3D displays are being shown on trade fairs.

The complete business model of the music industry is built around the fact that to do mass production of music is expensive.
This just is not true anymore now and you already see how they earn less and less money.
Same for newspaper companies, book publishers and so on...

And while digital copies are capable of being multiplied without loss more and more devices who are capable to put digital information out in the real world are created.
A company in the UK built a 3D printer to make house construction faster and cheaper.
Another company built a "food printer" able to create meals from some ingredients (yuck!).

And there is much more to come, hopefully all the evangelists of "intellectual property" soon are put in their place because this whole idea in itself is a big joke, a scam only in place to make easy money.

Like with the copyright on the Alice in Wonderland movie, hello we are looking at fan fiction here, how is that something new on its own???

 

[Profit]

...I made this reply in rhetoric.

I don't really get your point, houses and ferrari's can't be downloaded

hopefully all the evangelists of "intellectual property" soon are put in their place

Sooo, who's going to create stuff, for free? Who owns the intellectual property to the stuff you're talking about in the rest of your post? Ask them if they're willing to give that intellectual property away. Go on.
Are you serious?


Look I can agree that copyright bs can go too far sometimes, BUT, "evangelists of intellectual property"?
If I produce something, art, music, food, software.. a fart even! I choose who gets it and for what, if someone takes it, it's stealing. Now, if they/I can get away with that (stealing) well, there's not much they/I can do about that. But if they/I catch em/me... there should be repurcussions.

Since I can see this is heading waaay off-topic lol, I'ma just highlight the fact that I made this reply in rhetoric.

 

[Witte]

In reply to profit and Chrome:

The reason it is stealing is because the law says so, but I think these laws will change. The current situation is not holdable, I think we do need new methods to reward artists, and to determine how much they "deserve". Nitpicking on a site like Jango, based on, at least in my opinion, outdated morals, is not going to change anything, we are already past 12 o'clock.

 

[Profit]

Err, I don't know about you, but if someone takes my stuff, without me giving the OK... whether the law allows it or not, I'ma be doing something to stop it. I'm pretty sure most people feel the same. Those people that produce/own stuff, that is.
It doesn't matter whether you can download it, wipe your @ss with it, brush your teeth with it... my stuff is my stuff.